Red Arrows-Cosford TRA Infingements
Join Date: May 2000
Location: door or ramp, don't mind.
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, however deluded it may seem, I like to think we're still the best air force in the World so by default it makes the Red's the best aero team in the World.
Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different.
Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The merits of various display teams aside - what makes the fact that this infringement caused havoc to the Reds display any more henious a crime/mistake than any other infringement?
Apart from the fact the Reds are high profile - nothing.
Yes, this display was Notam'ed and yes it is iuncumbent on pilots to check these. It is also incumbent on pilots to ensure that they are capable of navigating accurately in the conditions in which they are flying. (Too much reliant on electronic aids nowadays).
However, there are hundreds of instances of infringements, a high percentage of them serious, in and around major airports, especially in the south east, that have caused break offs and avoiding action to be taken by passenger jets. These would give me more cause for concern, especially as the likes of Stansted etc are a 24hr operation - so a (poor) excuse of not seeing a Notam indicating activity there does not exist!!
There is a lot of work ongoing with regards to educating the GA community, cries on here to hang, draw and quarter the culprits are not conducive to helping the situation.
Investigate the reasons behind the infringement first, then take the appropriate action. In the past when major airports have been involved and passengers jets been made a bit too uncomfortable, the appropriate action has ranged from a not tas, no biscuits interview with the chief instructor at an airfield, up to loss of licence and court action.
Apart from the fact the Reds are high profile - nothing.
Yes, this display was Notam'ed and yes it is iuncumbent on pilots to check these. It is also incumbent on pilots to ensure that they are capable of navigating accurately in the conditions in which they are flying. (Too much reliant on electronic aids nowadays).
However, there are hundreds of instances of infringements, a high percentage of them serious, in and around major airports, especially in the south east, that have caused break offs and avoiding action to be taken by passenger jets. These would give me more cause for concern, especially as the likes of Stansted etc are a 24hr operation - so a (poor) excuse of not seeing a Notam indicating activity there does not exist!!
There is a lot of work ongoing with regards to educating the GA community, cries on here to hang, draw and quarter the culprits are not conducive to helping the situation.
Investigate the reasons behind the infringement first, then take the appropriate action. In the past when major airports have been involved and passengers jets been made a bit too uncomfortable, the appropriate action has ranged from a not tas, no biscuits interview with the chief instructor at an airfield, up to loss of licence and court action.
'I'll have some of whatever he's been drinking'
Well, however deluded it may seem, I like to think we're still the best air force in the World so by default it makes the Red's the best aero team in the World.
Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different.
Second thoughts....nah, we're all rubbish these days and don't let anyone tell you different.
First you think we have the world's best display team, then you rationalise it by saying that it's because you believe our entire Air Force is the best?
If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France. Admittedly, I have not seen their 2007 show, but they have consistently struck me over the last 10 years as being far better than anyone else - dynamic, flown with finesse, and incorporating elements that no other teams can claim to have an equivalent to.
As for explaining why our Air Force is now a shadow of its former self and not by any means the best in the world, it sounds like you'd prefer it if you were left to keep deluding yourself.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, there will always be a minority that just do not bother to read NOTAMs and who think it'll never happen to them and no amount of education of the these folk will stop them pottering around the skies with their brains in neutral.
As a quick thinking police said once to an elderly motorist whom he had pulled over for driving overly slowly.
"Ma'am, I'm sure that in your 60 plus years of driving that you have not been involved in an traffic accident however did you happen to notice whether the manner in which you were driving created any behind you?"
A PPL friend of mine once sat in wonder as I explained to him of a web site that these NOTAMs were displayed on and that they effected everyone that flew and it was the pilot's responsibilty to know which of these NOTAMs effected their sortie and NOT ATC
Accidents will happen, however isn't it only an accident if those involved are not culpible failing to read NOTAMs is no accident, so yes lets investigate the reason behind this and if found guilty take their licence off them and let the aviation community know that if you %$£" up and are found guilty you should expect to be punished.
MS
As a quick thinking police said once to an elderly motorist whom he had pulled over for driving overly slowly.
"Ma'am, I'm sure that in your 60 plus years of driving that you have not been involved in an traffic accident however did you happen to notice whether the manner in which you were driving created any behind you?"
A PPL friend of mine once sat in wonder as I explained to him of a web site that these NOTAMs were displayed on and that they effected everyone that flew and it was the pilot's responsibilty to know which of these NOTAMs effected their sortie and NOT ATC
Accidents will happen, however isn't it only an accident if those involved are not culpible failing to read NOTAMs is no accident, so yes lets investigate the reason behind this and if found guilty take their licence off them and let the aviation community know that if you %$£" up and are found guilty you should expect to be punished.
MS
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of you may care to read the Team Leader's comments on the Red Arrows website at:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/...90899FB0172FAC
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/...90899FB0172FAC
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is ridiculous though, yes it is true that infingments of one sort or another happen all the time but considering how much attention this gets every year it amazes me that people are still doing it.
To quote Pilot Magazine recently:
Every year without fail, displays by the Red Arrows are disrupted by aircraft flying into TRA around airshows. Will it be you this summer? If so you can expect a pitiless reception from the legal department of the CAA, who point out that it has never been easier to find out where and when the Arrows pop up. You can find out in the NOTAMS, you can find out on the web, you can find out by phone......
.....Short of having Red One come round to your house every day and brief you over breakfast, its hard to see what more can be done. Don't expect sympathy.
To quote Pilot Magazine recently:
Every year without fail, displays by the Red Arrows are disrupted by aircraft flying into TRA around airshows. Will it be you this summer? If so you can expect a pitiless reception from the legal department of the CAA, who point out that it has never been easier to find out where and when the Arrows pop up. You can find out in the NOTAMS, you can find out on the web, you can find out by phone......
.....Short of having Red One come round to your house every day and brief you over breakfast, its hard to see what more can be done. Don't expect sympathy.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: door or ramp, don't mind.
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First you think we have the world's best display team, then you rationalise it by saying that it's because you believe our entire Air Force is the best?
But you're right. We're $h!t compared to even the Bolivian Air Force these days so bollox to self-esteem and hurrah to being w@nk.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: door or ramp, don't mind.
Posts: 961
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to see the best team in the world, look south to the Patrouille de France
".Righty ho, I'm off to be deluded again.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Back in Geordie Land
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Irrespective of what peoples personal views are on the Red Arrows, the fact remains that this was an infringement, and it was stupid and wrong.
Finding these things out is the simplest thing in the world, as has been explained before. For anyone to go flying, without checking the absolute basics is crass stupidity, ignorant and dangerous, and IMHO they shouldn't be flying at all.
I wonder how many of those of you on this forum that are 'poo pooing' these 2 incidents would feel the same if the microlight or whatever had hit a passenger aircraft or something else? perhaps causing loss of life? Suddenly it's not just an inconvenience any more is it?
GA is NOT the most popular pastime in the world with many civilians who would like to see it end, but I for one want to see it continue. Incidents like this do nothing for the cause of GA, on the contrary, someone at the CAA will look at it and (hopefullY) act accordingly with the individuals concerned. It would be sad if the actions of a few idiots had a greater impact on the rest of us who fly for pleasure.
Well done to Red 1, he did exactly the right and proper thing, and if it dissapointed many at Cosford, then bad luck - find out who the fool was and send him the bill!
The Winco
Finding these things out is the simplest thing in the world, as has been explained before. For anyone to go flying, without checking the absolute basics is crass stupidity, ignorant and dangerous, and IMHO they shouldn't be flying at all.
I wonder how many of those of you on this forum that are 'poo pooing' these 2 incidents would feel the same if the microlight or whatever had hit a passenger aircraft or something else? perhaps causing loss of life? Suddenly it's not just an inconvenience any more is it?
GA is NOT the most popular pastime in the world with many civilians who would like to see it end, but I for one want to see it continue. Incidents like this do nothing for the cause of GA, on the contrary, someone at the CAA will look at it and (hopefullY) act accordingly with the individuals concerned. It would be sad if the actions of a few idiots had a greater impact on the rest of us who fly for pleasure.
Well done to Red 1, he did exactly the right and proper thing, and if it dissapointed many at Cosford, then bad luck - find out who the fool was and send him the bill!
The Winco
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there are hundreds of instances of infringements, a high percentage of them serious, in and around major airports, especially in the south east, that have caused break offs and avoiding action to be taken by passenger jets. These would give me more cause for concern, especially as the likes of Stansted etc
And more to the point, how can you miss 9 Red Hawks trailing smoke, or think it's a good idea to be anywhere near them in a microlight? The only supposition must be that these folk were there deliberately for the grandstand view...or that my Gran has more airmanship than these guys flying her Stannah Stairlift
*rant off*
Uncle G
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally concur....hang the guilty..ba...ds.....
but thinking about it...... there but for the grace of god go I..... I busted soviet airspace once, back in the days when it was t'USSR..... got chased away by a MIG 21..... scared the poo out of me.... I learnt about navigation from that
but thinking about it...... there but for the grace of god go I..... I busted soviet airspace once, back in the days when it was t'USSR..... got chased away by a MIG 21..... scared the poo out of me.... I learnt about navigation from that
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
winco said:
Well done to Red 1, he did exactly the right and proper thing, and if it dissapointed many at Cosford, then bad luck
The biggest attraction for the public at any UK airshow is the Red Arrows.
Hundreds of thousands of people were there to see the show, ruined by 2 prats who I dare say knew what they were doing and hoped to get a birds eye view of the event. £40 (+ mega bucks for food and drink on a hot day) for a day out is a lot of money, and people rightly expect value for their money.
Wont they be popular if their names get into the media.
Potential headlines:
Red Arrows crash caused by weekend 'pilot'. Loss of life etc etc
>>Seek the individuals, prosecute, fine, and loss of licence M'lud.<<
Spare them name and shame for their own safety.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 430 Likes
on
227 Posts
KPax,
I'm intrigued that you said the RA(T) was 8 nm. How is this so?
The mauve AIC issued by NATS definitely says 6 nm, as it does for all of the Red Arrows displays.
BTW, I'm not a microlight pilot..... and I wasn't flying last weekend.
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4M218.PDF
I'm intrigued that you said the RA(T) was 8 nm. How is this so?
The mauve AIC issued by NATS definitely says 6 nm, as it does for all of the Red Arrows displays.
BTW, I'm not a microlight pilot..... and I wasn't flying last weekend.
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4M218.PDF
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Midlands
Age: 72
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cosford infringement
Aren't the Reds the RAF's ONLY full time aero team?
Given the generally sad show from the RAF - no Harriers (all in Afghanistan) , dare we ask for a Nimrood (I think they're all U/S) Plenty of Jags gathering dust - (we could have had a farewell 10 ship display for old times sake - they've been trying to get them in to Cosford for the past four weeks I'm sure there is enough spare avtur around). Haven't the MOD got a Hunter on the books now? Vulcan printed on the ticket (promises, promises) No international visitors (Is the Indian Air Force visiting RIAT)? What about a German Phantoom for old times. I'm sure the Yanks have got the odd B52 that could pop across from Yoming or wherever (they'd probably miss and do a slow flypast of Birmingham Int instead) ....... Hey I'd offer a Bolkow Junior...
Given that C is now billed as 'The largest outdoor gathering in the West Midlands' In excess of 53K) and I don't think the trains ran again. I would have thought there would be more effort.
As for the microlight pilot - prosecution is unfair and only makes money for lawyers.l I think we should take a leaf out of the current Government's policies relating to victim support and invite him/her to next year's show (assuming there is one) for an aerobatic display of what happens to a microlight in close proximity of fast jets, if he /she survives that, he/she can set up a stall next to one of those awful teddybear raffle stands by the air rifle range and then explain to all of the anoraks (I flew one of those in 1953 and I recon I could fly one today...) /pilots who read NOTAMS (Why are you such a D***head?) and the general public (is it a helicopter?) the difference between flying a real aircraft and what he does (I was on a stand for three hours there on Sunday and ended up brain dead!).
As Joni Mitchell said "You don't know what you've got till its gone" (I'm off to RIAT..)
Given the generally sad show from the RAF - no Harriers (all in Afghanistan) , dare we ask for a Nimrood (I think they're all U/S) Plenty of Jags gathering dust - (we could have had a farewell 10 ship display for old times sake - they've been trying to get them in to Cosford for the past four weeks I'm sure there is enough spare avtur around). Haven't the MOD got a Hunter on the books now? Vulcan printed on the ticket (promises, promises) No international visitors (Is the Indian Air Force visiting RIAT)? What about a German Phantoom for old times. I'm sure the Yanks have got the odd B52 that could pop across from Yoming or wherever (they'd probably miss and do a slow flypast of Birmingham Int instead) ....... Hey I'd offer a Bolkow Junior...
Given that C is now billed as 'The largest outdoor gathering in the West Midlands' In excess of 53K) and I don't think the trains ran again. I would have thought there would be more effort.
As for the microlight pilot - prosecution is unfair and only makes money for lawyers.l I think we should take a leaf out of the current Government's policies relating to victim support and invite him/her to next year's show (assuming there is one) for an aerobatic display of what happens to a microlight in close proximity of fast jets, if he /she survives that, he/she can set up a stall next to one of those awful teddybear raffle stands by the air rifle range and then explain to all of the anoraks (I flew one of those in 1953 and I recon I could fly one today...) /pilots who read NOTAMS (Why are you such a D***head?) and the general public (is it a helicopter?) the difference between flying a real aircraft and what he does (I was on a stand for three hours there on Sunday and ended up brain dead!).
As Joni Mitchell said "You don't know what you've got till its gone" (I'm off to RIAT..)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Slightly left of centreline
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
another thing
"The merits of various display teams aside - what makes the fact that this infringement caused havoc to the Reds display any more henious a crime/mistake than any other infringement?"
Surely the presence of 40-50,000 people on the ground and the potential collision risk increased by a factor of 9 makes it a much more serious situation??
"The merits of various display teams aside - what makes the fact that this infringement caused havoc to the Reds display any more henious a crime/mistake than any other infringement?"
Surely the presence of 40-50,000 people on the ground and the potential collision risk increased by a factor of 9 makes it a much more serious situation??