The End of the Jaguar
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The End of the Jaguar
Dear all,
As some of you know, I am also an ex-Lightning mate. There is a site www.lightningpilots.com run by Ed Durham at his own expense and he freely gives his time to it, in addition to paying for it. Not only does it list Lightning pilots from way, way back, but also contains some evocative images of what was arguably Britains' finest interceptor (and it was ALL British).
In my humble view the Jaguar was one of the finest mud-moving aeroplanes around. It commanded respect and had long legs. Much has been said about its' lack of serious thrust, but I understand that the later models were much better in this respect. I achieved almost 2000 hours on type and enjoyed every minute, apart from jumping out of one.
Would anyone be interested in setting up a site "jaguarpilots.com" or similar? I am sure that there must be many of you out there, including all our groundcrew and engineers, who could contribute.
This aeroplane should not be forgotten.
JP (or is it LP?)
As some of you know, I am also an ex-Lightning mate. There is a site www.lightningpilots.com run by Ed Durham at his own expense and he freely gives his time to it, in addition to paying for it. Not only does it list Lightning pilots from way, way back, but also contains some evocative images of what was arguably Britains' finest interceptor (and it was ALL British).
In my humble view the Jaguar was one of the finest mud-moving aeroplanes around. It commanded respect and had long legs. Much has been said about its' lack of serious thrust, but I understand that the later models were much better in this respect. I achieved almost 2000 hours on type and enjoyed every minute, apart from jumping out of one.
Would anyone be interested in setting up a site "jaguarpilots.com" or similar? I am sure that there must be many of you out there, including all our groundcrew and engineers, who could contribute.
This aeroplane should not be forgotten.
JP (or is it LP?)
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In my humble view the Jaguar was one of the finest mud-moving aeroplanes around. It commanded respect and had long legs.
It might have "longer-legs" than some of your Stn Cdrs - but that wouldn't be difficult, would it?
IMHO
LJ
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I note that the Jaguar association is Commissioned only.
Now that she is out of service, perhaps the JA should open its doors to the men and women who made sure the aircraft could fly?
I.e. The engineers
TW
Now that she is out of service, perhaps the JA should open its doors to the men and women who made sure the aircraft could fly?
I.e. The engineers
TW
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TW,
I could not agree more.
I first dispensed with rank/status crap in 1985 within BAe.
We were all "Mister" irrespective of previous military rank.
'Twas a great working society and environment, where everyone respected each others' profession and capabilites.
P***taking about previous service rank and authority was very entertaining and enlightening, and nobody gave a *%&£. Too many other things to think about.
I note that the "jaguarassociation" site requires a subscription.
Accordingly, I refuse to subscribe to it.
PM me if you wish.
JP
I could not agree more.
I first dispensed with rank/status crap in 1985 within BAe.
We were all "Mister" irrespective of previous military rank.
'Twas a great working society and environment, where everyone respected each others' profession and capabilites.
P***taking about previous service rank and authority was very entertaining and enlightening, and nobody gave a *%&£. Too many other things to think about.
I note that the "jaguarassociation" site requires a subscription.
Accordingly, I refuse to subscribe to it.
PM me if you wish.
JP
JP
The answer is none...but plenty of memories of Fox 1, Fox 2 and Guns, Guns, Guns My favourite moment was when one of my Junior Piots gave one of the Jag Bosses a lesson on Lag-BFM in an ACMI debrief - very funny!
If you're looking for "finest mud-moving aeroplanes" then I'm afraid you would have to go a long way away from the dear old Jag - probably one of Panavia's better efforts (ie. GR1/4) or the F15E would get my vote
I'm not be-littling what you Jag mates have done in the past - I think you have done a great job with an advanced trainer that was going to kill students. But I'm afraid "finest mud-moving aeroplanes" really does not cut it with me...
LJ
PS Good luck with your association. How about having it next door to Shades after the afternoon session of the F4 re-union - I can think of a few songs to sing!!!
... and how many Jaguar hours do you have my friend???? (or is it a*****e)?
My favourite moment was when one of my Junior Piots gave one of the Jag Bosses a lesson on Lag-BFM in an ACMI debrief - very funny!If you're looking for "finest mud-moving aeroplanes" then I'm afraid you would have to go a long way away from the dear old Jag - probably one of Panavia's better efforts (ie. GR1/4) or the F15E would get my vote
I'm not be-littling what you Jag mates have done in the past - I think you have done a great job with an advanced trainer that was going to kill students. But I'm afraid "finest mud-moving aeroplanes" really does not cut it with me...
LJ
PS Good luck with your association. How about having it next door to Shades after the afternoon session of the F4 re-union - I can think of a few songs to sing!!!
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Jag: The Advanced Trainer Myth
The Jag was never designed to be a trainer.
There WAS an AST for a trainer which, was named the Jaguar, running in parallel with the requirement for a supersonic strike aircraft - the Anglo-French Variable Geometry (AFVG). When the latter was cancelled, the Jaguar concept was adapted from the outset to become a supersonic strike aircraft in its own right - before design commenced.
Sorry to deflate your prejudice.
In the 1960s The French government was casting about for a new trainer with secondary strike capabilities, a requirement known as the “Ecole de Combat et Appui Tactique (ECAT)”. The ECAT was to replace the Fouga Magister and Lockheed T-33 in the training role for the French Air Force (The Armee De L’Air or AdA), and the Dassault Super Mystere B 2, Republic F-84F, and North American F-100 in the attack role. The original winner of the ECAT design had been the Breguet “Br.121”, an inflow design based on their Br.1001 Taon (Horsefly) a design for a NATO requirement that was won by the Fiat G-91 design. Britain was also searching for the same class of replacement aircraft. A requirement emerged in 1962 as “Air Staff Target 362 (AST 362), which specified an advanced jet trainer to replace the Folland Gnat T Mk 1 and the Hawker Hunter T.7. The trainer was also to serve as a light tactical strike aircraft. The British Aircraft Corporation (BAC, later half of the nationalized/ re-privatised British Aerospace / BAE Systems organization) came up with a design for the requirement designated the P-45, featuring twin afterburning Rolls-Royce RB.172 engines, then in development, and a top speed of Mach 1.7. These two parallel requirements led to discussions between the two nations for collaboration for a single aircraft to meet the requirements of both, with a provisional joint specification released in March 1964, followed by a refined specification in October 1964. The British government enjoyed the idea of a collaborative program as a means of improving relations with the French after the De Gaulle’s “Non” to Britain joining the European Common Market in 1963. The two counties specifications didn’t exactly match. The British wished for an aircraft that in reality was only a trainer, but also were looking for a advanced strike attack design and the French wanted an trainer that could be produced also as a light attack aircraft. A round of discussions led the two sides to propose two collaborations. The first would be for an aircraft based on the ECAT that would serve as an advanced supersonic trainer for the RAF and as a trainer/light strike aircraft for the FAF. The second collaboration would be for a dedicated strike fighter with for both the RAF and the AdA. This aircraft would have “swing wings” and was known as the “Anglo-French Variable Geometry” (AFVG) aircraft. A decision to proceed on these two collaborative efforts was formalized in a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed on 17 May 1965. As far as the trainer/light attack aircraft went, the initial agreement envisioned that the RAF would obtain 150 advanced trainer variants, while the AdA would obtain 75 trainer variants and 75 light attack variants. The name JAGUAR was chosen because it was a name that was spelt the same in both languages. Unlike the normally protracted discussions on naming aircraft, the naming of the Jaguar took a day! The head of Breguet, Henri Ziegler phoned the head of BAC, Sir George Edwards and suggested the name for the launch of the project at the 1965 Paris Air Show. By the end of the same day, the British had agreed after getting clearance to use the name with the Jaguar motor company. The British trainer was designated “B” (Biplace), while the French trainer was designated “E” (Ecole, French for school) and the French light attack aircraft was designated “A” (Appui, French for Support). In May 1966, Breguet Aviation of France and British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) formed a joint company to build the new aircraft. The collaboration was named “Societe Europeanne de Production de l’Avion Ecole de Combat et Appui Tactique”, blessedly abbreviated as SEPECAT. The engine for the Jaguar was also to be built by an Anglo-French consortium. Rolls Royce of the UK would merge their RB.172 engine design (that Breguet had selected for the Br.121) with that of the Turbomeca T-260 of France, resulting in the Adour. The name kept the tradition of Rolls Royce Engines being named after rivers, the river in question, however being French. However, the Br.121 design was for a specification that only offered modest strike capability and a limited combat radius. The RAF wanted an aircraft that offered more potential and pushed the project in that direction, with BAC modifying the design to a bigger and more powerful aircraft. RAF insecurity on the number of other British combat aircraft projects falling by the wayside seems to have driven this motive. The French felt the changes in specification by the British were against their actual requirements, but they were also tempted by the revised machine’s improved capability. The project took centre stage for the British when the French cancelled the AFVG in June 1967, citing lack of funds. The French had used this excuse to push money towards the all French Dassault program, the “Mirage G” (that never saw service). The British turned to the Jaguar to fill the hole caused by this cancellation.
There WAS an AST for a trainer which, was named the Jaguar, running in parallel with the requirement for a supersonic strike aircraft - the Anglo-French Variable Geometry (AFVG). When the latter was cancelled, the Jaguar concept was adapted from the outset to become a supersonic strike aircraft in its own right - before design commenced.
Sorry to deflate your prejudice.
In the 1960s The French government was casting about for a new trainer with secondary strike capabilities, a requirement known as the “Ecole de Combat et Appui Tactique (ECAT)”. The ECAT was to replace the Fouga Magister and Lockheed T-33 in the training role for the French Air Force (The Armee De L’Air or AdA), and the Dassault Super Mystere B 2, Republic F-84F, and North American F-100 in the attack role. The original winner of the ECAT design had been the Breguet “Br.121”, an inflow design based on their Br.1001 Taon (Horsefly) a design for a NATO requirement that was won by the Fiat G-91 design. Britain was also searching for the same class of replacement aircraft. A requirement emerged in 1962 as “Air Staff Target 362 (AST 362), which specified an advanced jet trainer to replace the Folland Gnat T Mk 1 and the Hawker Hunter T.7. The trainer was also to serve as a light tactical strike aircraft. The British Aircraft Corporation (BAC, later half of the nationalized/ re-privatised British Aerospace / BAE Systems organization) came up with a design for the requirement designated the P-45, featuring twin afterburning Rolls-Royce RB.172 engines, then in development, and a top speed of Mach 1.7. These two parallel requirements led to discussions between the two nations for collaboration for a single aircraft to meet the requirements of both, with a provisional joint specification released in March 1964, followed by a refined specification in October 1964. The British government enjoyed the idea of a collaborative program as a means of improving relations with the French after the De Gaulle’s “Non” to Britain joining the European Common Market in 1963. The two counties specifications didn’t exactly match. The British wished for an aircraft that in reality was only a trainer, but also were looking for a advanced strike attack design and the French wanted an trainer that could be produced also as a light attack aircraft. A round of discussions led the two sides to propose two collaborations. The first would be for an aircraft based on the ECAT that would serve as an advanced supersonic trainer for the RAF and as a trainer/light strike aircraft for the FAF. The second collaboration would be for a dedicated strike fighter with for both the RAF and the AdA. This aircraft would have “swing wings” and was known as the “Anglo-French Variable Geometry” (AFVG) aircraft. A decision to proceed on these two collaborative efforts was formalized in a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed on 17 May 1965. As far as the trainer/light attack aircraft went, the initial agreement envisioned that the RAF would obtain 150 advanced trainer variants, while the AdA would obtain 75 trainer variants and 75 light attack variants. The name JAGUAR was chosen because it was a name that was spelt the same in both languages. Unlike the normally protracted discussions on naming aircraft, the naming of the Jaguar took a day! The head of Breguet, Henri Ziegler phoned the head of BAC, Sir George Edwards and suggested the name for the launch of the project at the 1965 Paris Air Show. By the end of the same day, the British had agreed after getting clearance to use the name with the Jaguar motor company. The British trainer was designated “B” (Biplace), while the French trainer was designated “E” (Ecole, French for school) and the French light attack aircraft was designated “A” (Appui, French for Support). In May 1966, Breguet Aviation of France and British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) formed a joint company to build the new aircraft. The collaboration was named “Societe Europeanne de Production de l’Avion Ecole de Combat et Appui Tactique”, blessedly abbreviated as SEPECAT. The engine for the Jaguar was also to be built by an Anglo-French consortium. Rolls Royce of the UK would merge their RB.172 engine design (that Breguet had selected for the Br.121) with that of the Turbomeca T-260 of France, resulting in the Adour. The name kept the tradition of Rolls Royce Engines being named after rivers, the river in question, however being French. However, the Br.121 design was for a specification that only offered modest strike capability and a limited combat radius. The RAF wanted an aircraft that offered more potential and pushed the project in that direction, with BAC modifying the design to a bigger and more powerful aircraft. RAF insecurity on the number of other British combat aircraft projects falling by the wayside seems to have driven this motive. The French felt the changes in specification by the British were against their actual requirements, but they were also tempted by the revised machine’s improved capability. The project took centre stage for the British when the French cancelled the AFVG in June 1967, citing lack of funds. The French had used this excuse to push money towards the all French Dassault program, the “Mirage G” (that never saw service). The British turned to the Jaguar to fill the hole caused by this cancellation.
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Jaguar as a Trainer
The Jaguar may not have been designed as a trainer but it was certainly considered as one. I recall a presentation on the subject when I was a student at CFS in early 1964. The staff reckoned that it was way too complicated, inter alia, to be used as a training aircraft, at least in a pre-Wings phase.
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The Jaguar was certainly first intended as a dual purpose advanced two- seat pilot training/light strike aircraft in the provisional operational requirement issued to industry in early 1964.
The RAF/RN were interested primarily in the trainer and the French in the light strike version.
Following the MoU signed in '65 BAC became the British partner and Breguet & Dassault the French partners. Each country would buy 150 aircraft with the U.K. only having trainers ( The Jaguar "B" - biplace). These trainers would however be fitted with nav attack systems in order to fly a broad spectrum of missions. Those of us around at the time will remember the BAC publicity illustrations of Jaguar in training markings.
Due , in the British case, primarily to the cancellation of TSR-2 , AFVG and P1154 the MoU was amended in '67 to increase the number of Jaguars to 200 for each nation. Of these 110 were to be two seaters for the British with the other 90 now being made up of the new single seat "S" ( Strike) version.
The 1970 U.K. White Paper on Defence swung the buy to 165 single seaters and 35 trainers - most of the latter for the OCU.
The original idea of the Jaguar as a Hunter and Gnat replacement was thus abandoned, with the Hawk then appearing very rapidly on the scene to meet the requirement.
The RAF/RN were interested primarily in the trainer and the French in the light strike version.
Following the MoU signed in '65 BAC became the British partner and Breguet & Dassault the French partners. Each country would buy 150 aircraft with the U.K. only having trainers ( The Jaguar "B" - biplace). These trainers would however be fitted with nav attack systems in order to fly a broad spectrum of missions. Those of us around at the time will remember the BAC publicity illustrations of Jaguar in training markings.
Due , in the British case, primarily to the cancellation of TSR-2 , AFVG and P1154 the MoU was amended in '67 to increase the number of Jaguars to 200 for each nation. Of these 110 were to be two seaters for the British with the other 90 now being made up of the new single seat "S" ( Strike) version.
The 1970 U.K. White Paper on Defence swung the buy to 165 single seaters and 35 trainers - most of the latter for the OCU.
The original idea of the Jaguar as a Hunter and Gnat replacement was thus abandoned, with the Hawk then appearing very rapidly on the scene to meet the requirement.
Last edited by RETDPI; 12th Jun 2007 at 14:33.
