Merlin Costs
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Merlin Costs
Defence written questions - 22nd May - Helicopters: Costs.
Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) acquisition cost and (b) average operating cost per hour is of the (i) RAF and (ii) Royal Navy version of the Merlin helicopter. [137620]
Mr. Ingram: The acquisition cost of the RAF operated Merlin Mk 3 is around £19 million and for the RN operated Merlin Mk 1 is around £39 million.
The large price differential is due to the inclusion of the sophisticated anti-submarine mission avionics, which are an integral part of the weapons system in the Merlin Mkl.
The total operating cost per hour is approximately £34,000 for the Merlin Mk 3 and is approximately £42,000 for the Merlin Mk 1. These figures include both fixed and marginal costs, comprising servicing costs, fuel costs, crew capitation and training costs, support costs and charges for capital and depreciation.
Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) acquisition cost and (b) average operating cost per hour is of the (i) RAF and (ii) Royal Navy version of the Merlin helicopter. [137620]
Mr. Ingram: The acquisition cost of the RAF operated Merlin Mk 3 is around £19 million and for the RN operated Merlin Mk 1 is around £39 million.
The large price differential is due to the inclusion of the sophisticated anti-submarine mission avionics, which are an integral part of the weapons system in the Merlin Mkl.
The total operating cost per hour is approximately £34,000 for the Merlin Mk 3 and is approximately £42,000 for the Merlin Mk 1. These figures include both fixed and marginal costs, comprising servicing costs, fuel costs, crew capitation and training costs, support costs and charges for capital and depreciation.
I am trying so hard to work out what the point of the above post is...
.. nope, it escapes me.
Could it be 'Ground a Mk1 Merlin for an hour and feed aircrew with crap butty boxes for a month?'
.. nope, it escapes me.
Could it be 'Ground a Mk1 Merlin for an hour and feed aircrew with crap butty boxes for a month?'
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Falmouth
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good god. and we are wondering why the flying rations have been cut.
£39 million for an ASW Merlin.... is that each? Are they saying that each Sonar cost £20 million each....and the RN bought 45 of them....(somebody do the maths for me please)....
I suppose the next question should be....
And how often do those 45 (x£20,000,000) fly on ASW sorties tracking and hunting submarines?
£39 million for an ASW Merlin.... is that each? Are they saying that each Sonar cost £20 million each....and the RN bought 45 of them....(somebody do the maths for me please)....
I suppose the next question should be....
And how often do those 45 (x£20,000,000) fly on ASW sorties tracking and hunting submarines?
AIUI, the sonics packs etc include the development costs amortised over the number of airframes - hence the ludicrous cost. Particularly as we've already lost at least two so are down to 42 a/f.
As for the how often, not nearly enough to maintain currency so I'm told.....
As for the how often, not nearly enough to maintain currency so I'm told.....
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
*Sighs*
Where do you want to start with this one? The grey fleet do very little at all, almost none of it on ops, but because it's painted grey the Navy thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. They're only now panicking as their budget gets slashed as they're so far from the main effort they need the hubble telescope to see it.
They procured the wrong product, for the wrong era. They're trying to play catch up by putting grey pilots/ observers through a mk3 course, and trying to justify dumping that 'incredibly sophisticated' (read expensive and currently little use) sonar to adapt to a trooping/ ISTAR role.
The Navy conveniently forgot about the Junglies (as they've been handed over to JHC pretty much wholesale) so no one wants to shell out for us. It's only now they've belatedly realised that we're all they have in the cupboard that's of any use to them at all that any help is coming our way at all. Even though it's in the form of quick fixes for a temporary solution.
Don't get me started on the grey fleet, you could burn Culdrose to the ground (excluding 771, the only ones who do anything useful) and it would have zero impact on operations. Yet all the focus, funding and support heads their way.
Sound bitter and angry?
That's because I am. Sick of seeing one of the most operationally current, experienced and professional units heamorrage highly qualified people because they're spending up to 9 months a year in war zones or desperately trying to keep current in arctic or jungle theatres. These are committed blokes who stil, despite everything, love their jobs and role, but are simply not prepared to put up with almost bugger all time with the wife and kids.
*Takes deep breath*
Rant over.
Where do you want to start with this one? The grey fleet do very little at all, almost none of it on ops, but because it's painted grey the Navy thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. They're only now panicking as their budget gets slashed as they're so far from the main effort they need the hubble telescope to see it.
They procured the wrong product, for the wrong era. They're trying to play catch up by putting grey pilots/ observers through a mk3 course, and trying to justify dumping that 'incredibly sophisticated' (read expensive and currently little use) sonar to adapt to a trooping/ ISTAR role.
The Navy conveniently forgot about the Junglies (as they've been handed over to JHC pretty much wholesale) so no one wants to shell out for us. It's only now they've belatedly realised that we're all they have in the cupboard that's of any use to them at all that any help is coming our way at all. Even though it's in the form of quick fixes for a temporary solution.
Don't get me started on the grey fleet, you could burn Culdrose to the ground (excluding 771, the only ones who do anything useful) and it would have zero impact on operations. Yet all the focus, funding and support heads their way.
Sound bitter and angry?
That's because I am. Sick of seeing one of the most operationally current, experienced and professional units heamorrage highly qualified people because they're spending up to 9 months a year in war zones or desperately trying to keep current in arctic or jungle theatres. These are committed blokes who stil, despite everything, love their jobs and role, but are simply not prepared to put up with almost bugger all time with the wife and kids.
*Takes deep breath*
Rant over.
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Sounds as though the grey Merlins and the Typhoon would get on well together. Expensive, no real use in the current world, and draining the green fleets of money....
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry? Explain to me the logic of 45 aircraft at £39 million a throw when there are barely enough ships to carry that many? What great foresight to spend such a large proportion of a budget on an item that even 15 years ago appeared redundant to requirement, and in our current future is highly unlikely to be needed as it is an item that is fully utilised only if we go to war with a major superpower (and if someone had used foresight 15 years ago of course....). Plus of course it's always common sense to spend all your money on a pet project that then cripples you financially, removes you from the centre of gravity, and gives an impression of incompetence on a grand scale. Nothing like giving yourself a range of assets to allow flexibility eh?
Oh I forgot, the Fleet likes monolithic projects without bearing on reality.
Edited for mong spelling.
Oh I forgot, the Fleet likes monolithic projects without bearing on reality.
Edited for mong spelling.
But surely you're not suggesting that we don't need anti submarine capababilities?
When Merlin HM1 was ordered (1993?) , we had a larger Fleet, all T23s were meant to get Merlin, as well as CVS and RFAs. The Culdrose based units do deploy surely, or do maritime operations not count?
Anyway, what about the potential threat from Iranian submarines, not just the three Kilos, but the small coastal ones they built themselves? If they want to cause damage and disruption to the West, a tanker sunk here, a few rising bottom mines sown there......
Or North Korea? There was a thread on North Korea not so long ago - here it is. Another dodgy regime with submarines, quite a few in their case.
What if Argentina decided to blockade the Falklands with submarines?
I understand the frustrations of those who operate green types, but do we want more capability gaps? Our new amphibious ships would be tempting targets for an enemy submarine......
When Merlin HM1 was ordered (1993?) , we had a larger Fleet, all T23s were meant to get Merlin, as well as CVS and RFAs. The Culdrose based units do deploy surely, or do maritime operations not count?
Anyway, what about the potential threat from Iranian submarines, not just the three Kilos, but the small coastal ones they built themselves? If they want to cause damage and disruption to the West, a tanker sunk here, a few rising bottom mines sown there......
Or North Korea? There was a thread on North Korea not so long ago - here it is. Another dodgy regime with submarines, quite a few in their case.
What if Argentina decided to blockade the Falklands with submarines?
I understand the frustrations of those who operate green types, but do we want more capability gaps? Our new amphibious ships would be tempting targets for an enemy submarine......
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is fascinating. An Axis of Arrogance gets us into a serious scrap with n mega tribesmen and, in seemingly no time at all, people stop noticing what Ivan and Charley Chan's doing. At the same time we, or those that ever knew, forget the labyrinthine process that is Defence procurement. Boring stuff like translating a Service requirement into an equipment specification, bidding for funds to cover it, fending off malicious interference from a permanently hostile Treasury, binding contracts and evolving technology requiring "all the running you can do to keep in the same place".
Once we destroy the means of creating the capability and stop training crews to employ it effectively, it will be a very long time before we ever get it back. Are the lessons of the 1920's and the 1970s so easily forgotten? or are we banking on always having our big cousin to provide whatever we need on the big day?
Last year, this week, next month; we do probably have the wrong balance of kit to do the current day-job. Well s**t happens and we need to cover the gap. Not by knocking big holes in the future but by grasping the nettle and putting our collective money and commitment where our politicians' mouths are.
Once we destroy the means of creating the capability and stop training crews to employ it effectively, it will be a very long time before we ever get it back. Are the lessons of the 1920's and the 1970s so easily forgotten? or are we banking on always having our big cousin to provide whatever we need on the big day?
Last year, this week, next month; we do probably have the wrong balance of kit to do the current day-job. Well s**t happens and we need to cover the gap. Not by knocking big holes in the future but by grasping the nettle and putting our collective money and commitment where our politicians' mouths are.
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 26th May 2007 at 19:39. Reason: Echo Suppression
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, the Culdrose units get sent on ships on jobs that other services call exercises. Even in the link you provided had one Merlin mention, I know of one more, but put in the 'region' (and I do use that term in it's widest sense) to operate simply so it can be said to be there! It's doing a job any helo could do, not justifying it's overpriced avionics in any way.
North Korea - when questions were being asked, who do you think they asked them of? Us, unsuprisingly enough. But seeing as there is no more SHAR - no-one was going anywhere near the place.
Blockades of submarines? That's practical....
We have a capability gap precisely because we've massively overspent on filling one that didn't exist in the first place, and even the NAO came to the same conclusion.
North Korea - when questions were being asked, who do you think they asked them of? Us, unsuprisingly enough. But seeing as there is no more SHAR - no-one was going anywhere near the place.
Blockades of submarines? That's practical....
We have a capability gap precisely because we've massively overspent on filling one that didn't exist in the first place, and even the NAO came to the same conclusion.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: England
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want an amusing tale of just how inept our procurement process is (and has been for decades), take a look at Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs by Lewis Page (an ex Fishead).
A fascinating and funny read; and frustratingly accurate.
A fascinating and funny read; and frustratingly accurate.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Junglynx.
Since I am assuming you volunteered to be a Jungly (most seem to), dry your eyes wet pants. You wanted to live in a ditch and get shot at, and thats what you are getting! If you wanted easy access to a bar and a bunk you would have asked for pinger!
You can't please anybody these days............
Since I am assuming you volunteered to be a Jungly (most seem to), dry your eyes wet pants. You wanted to live in a ditch and get shot at, and thats what you are getting! If you wanted easy access to a bar and a bunk you would have asked for pinger!
You can't please anybody these days............
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist,
Yes I did volunteer, and it's not the job that bothers me. I know it seems strange to someone who's pinnacle in life is how early they can get away from work and how much comfort they can achieve, but I enjoy my job. I like doing something useful and supporting troops on the ground. It's the lack of foresight that has us doing the job in knackered airframes with no personnel support that grips me.
You, on the other hand, seem to have as much constructive input as you do utility in your role (I'm assuming by the smug condescension you are grey fleet). The attitude of, "I'm glad I chose my job as I'm safe at home and nice and comfortable thanks very much." makes me wonder why you're even in the military at all.
Yes I did volunteer, and it's not the job that bothers me. I know it seems strange to someone who's pinnacle in life is how early they can get away from work and how much comfort they can achieve, but I enjoy my job. I like doing something useful and supporting troops on the ground. It's the lack of foresight that has us doing the job in knackered airframes with no personnel support that grips me.
You, on the other hand, seem to have as much constructive input as you do utility in your role (I'm assuming by the smug condescension you are grey fleet). The attitude of, "I'm glad I chose my job as I'm safe at home and nice and comfortable thanks very much." makes me wonder why you're even in the military at all.