Aircrew rations
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Toddbabe: Let me get this straight: I go flying & then am charged on my mess bill for a meal - do they charge just a standard rate, or will I have to sign to say I had a curry(but no popadoms!), or just a tuna roll? If I'm not hungry & don't eat anything, will I still be charged? If no one eats any of the rations will the full cost of the wasted food be split between the whole crew? If I'm paying for all the food now, will I still leave any of the leftovers on the aircraft for the groundcrew? If we're charged on a standard rate per number of flying hours, much as our entitlements are currently based, & I have to hold before landing & slip into the next bracket, do they then charge me the higher rate of meal even though we were only provided with butty boxes?
If you eat in the mess you pay for what you actually consume, not what someone thinks you might possibly eat, otherwise it's pretty unfair.
Will ANYONE want to stay in an air force that charges you for the food you consume while flying their aircraft during a 16 hour day, when the alternatives(BA, Virgin etc) don't?
As I said in my original post, should those going on exercise have to provide their own rations, or maybe they should have to pay for their Compo? I think ALL personnel on DUTY that keeps them away from the normal source of meals (home or mess) should get a meal provided - that includes groundcrew working over a mealtime, gate guards, and aircrew flying who don't have an option to go to the Naafi or the mess. (It dosen't include those who would normally eat at home but are at work.) If I am compelled to purchase my own food before flight, there is a minefield of H&S legislation to negotiate (food poisoning due to lack of storage facilities before flight?) & I will be spending my crew duty in the supermarket, it's not what crew rest is for!
If you eat in the mess you pay for what you actually consume, not what someone thinks you might possibly eat, otherwise it's pretty unfair.
Will ANYONE want to stay in an air force that charges you for the food you consume while flying their aircraft during a 16 hour day, when the alternatives(BA, Virgin etc) don't?
As I said in my original post, should those going on exercise have to provide their own rations, or maybe they should have to pay for their Compo? I think ALL personnel on DUTY that keeps them away from the normal source of meals (home or mess) should get a meal provided - that includes groundcrew working over a mealtime, gate guards, and aircrew flying who don't have an option to go to the Naafi or the mess. (It dosen't include those who would normally eat at home but are at work.) If I am compelled to purchase my own food before flight, there is a minefield of H&S legislation to negotiate (food poisoning due to lack of storage facilities before flight?) & I will be spending my crew duty in the supermarket, it's not what crew rest is for!
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BluntedAtBirth
Was your posting meant to be justification???
I'm afraid I don't understand the point of your responce, does it have one?
The question was quite simple really: 'Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs'
Explaining the current tax regulations (if they were correct) was very well put, but it's hardly justification is it? Or did you go to the 'toddbabe school of justification' ?? And do you really think 20% is a good deal??
Anyway, I liked your constructive comments about eating pies - well done, oh how I chuckled! Nearly burst my seams with that one!
TSM
ps Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!
Was your posting meant to be justification???
I'm afraid I don't understand the point of your responce, does it have one?
The question was quite simple really: 'Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs'
Explaining the current tax regulations (if they were correct) was very well put, but it's hardly justification is it? Or did you go to the 'toddbabe school of justification' ?? And do you really think 20% is a good deal??
Anyway, I liked your constructive comments about eating pies - well done, oh how I chuckled! Nearly burst my seams with that one!
TSM
ps Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!
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TSM,
My point was explanation not justification; in a world where 'harmonizing' regulations is virtually a new religion the discrepancy over charging officers for non-protective uniform has been 'avoided' because, on average, most officers would lose money from the removal of the tax relief. Those who would suffer most would be the ones who spend most of their duty time in free-issue protective clothing (CS95, flying suits). The last time I did some rough calculations based on overall 'sales' of uniform to officers at a well-known StratAT MOB it was a good deal.
Personally speaking, this whole arguement seems pointless to me. If you are in an aircraft either flying me, or flying over me, I would like you and the rest of the crew to be in good form, which must mean eating when required and eating food prepared in an appriopriate (ie in-flight catering) environment. I would imagine that eating on a long mission isn't really a matter choice as a BOI finding we had just taken 250+ casualties because the crew's reactions had been slowed by low blood sugar levels would be difficult. So, its your duty to stuff your face as far as I am concerned and if it's a duty it should be free.
As to bursting your seams at the pie-eating quip, as it wasn't that funny really perhaps the pies are challenging your existing clothing already?
My point was explanation not justification; in a world where 'harmonizing' regulations is virtually a new religion the discrepancy over charging officers for non-protective uniform has been 'avoided' because, on average, most officers would lose money from the removal of the tax relief. Those who would suffer most would be the ones who spend most of their duty time in free-issue protective clothing (CS95, flying suits). The last time I did some rough calculations based on overall 'sales' of uniform to officers at a well-known StratAT MOB it was a good deal.
Personally speaking, this whole arguement seems pointless to me. If you are in an aircraft either flying me, or flying over me, I would like you and the rest of the crew to be in good form, which must mean eating when required and eating food prepared in an appriopriate (ie in-flight catering) environment. I would imagine that eating on a long mission isn't really a matter choice as a BOI finding we had just taken 250+ casualties because the crew's reactions had been slowed by low blood sugar levels would be difficult. So, its your duty to stuff your face as far as I am concerned and if it's a duty it should be free.
As to bursting your seams at the pie-eating quip, as it wasn't that funny really perhaps the pies are challenging your existing clothing already?
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Will everybody please stop whining.
1. Aircrew need to be fed to fly safely. Fact
2. Lineys deal with left over food. Fact
3. There ought to be meals provided for guards etc. Fact
4. Pay as You Dine was a good idea. Fact
5. All of the military is run by accountants. Fact
6. Said accountants get huge pay rises and perks for every percentage point they shave. Fact
7. These bean counters cannot see beyond a spreadsheet, for them nothing else is real. To them Flight Safety is someone elses job. FACT.
I would like nothing more than going for a flight, secure in the knowledge that up front in the pointy end, the seat/stick interface has had a full load of pies and is compus mentalists enough to drive me to my destination. How many of these moaning blunties have ever taken a ride in a pointy go go ship and seen first hand how hard the job actually is. TSM and PN and other aircrew. I have never believed in the theory of the aircrew being a master race, when I was in we all were a team achieving the mission
.
Then we would go and get pissed, don't tar us all with the same brush as some of these moaning feckers that are too miserley to see the need for free food.
Can I have a pie please mr Pilot Sir
?
1. Aircrew need to be fed to fly safely. Fact
2. Lineys deal with left over food. Fact
3. There ought to be meals provided for guards etc. Fact
4. Pay as You Dine was a good idea. Fact
5. All of the military is run by accountants. Fact
6. Said accountants get huge pay rises and perks for every percentage point they shave. Fact
7. These bean counters cannot see beyond a spreadsheet, for them nothing else is real. To them Flight Safety is someone elses job. FACT.
I would like nothing more than going for a flight, secure in the knowledge that up front in the pointy end, the seat/stick interface has had a full load of pies and is compus mentalists enough to drive me to my destination. How many of these moaning blunties have ever taken a ride in a pointy go go ship and seen first hand how hard the job actually is. TSM and PN and other aircrew. I have never believed in the theory of the aircrew being a master race, when I was in we all were a team achieving the mission
.Then we would go and get pissed, don't tar us all with the same brush as some of these moaning feckers that are too miserley to see the need for free food.
Can I have a pie please mr Pilot Sir
?
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TSM
Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!
The reason why no-one is posting a reply is becuase they are treating you with the contempt you deserve.
You have already shown your true colours on your attitude towards the ground crew, as for calling the plods, go ahead, just remember it works both ways.
Next time you crew out of your jet and fill your pockets with free food meant to be for a sortie, I am sure the ground crew (who know who you are) wont be quite as petty as you obviously are, grow up and get a life ground crew hater.
Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!
The reason why no-one is posting a reply is becuase they are treating you with the contempt you deserve.
You have already shown your true colours on your attitude towards the ground crew, as for calling the plods, go ahead, just remember it works both ways.
Next time you crew out of your jet and fill your pockets with free food meant to be for a sortie, I am sure the ground crew (who know who you are) wont be quite as petty as you obviously are, grow up and get a life ground crew hater.
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Sinking monkey I was going to pm you but what the hell!
"Clearly my threat to 'grass you up' to the cops, the next time you nick the aircrew rations, has touched a nerve, and I detect you are trying to find reverse mode. There have been several explanations on this thread, from eminantly qualified people, explaining why we get rationed",
I am in no way trying to find a reverse mode, you call the police I couldn't give a toss and you know what? neither could they! do you really feel the police are going to give a flying **** about linies taking 8 hour old scraps back to the crew room when they are destined for the bin otherwise! wake up and smell your free cofee!
"We" that means me as well are not arguing against these "eminantly qualified" people about why Aircrew get rations but are merely asking in the interests of the thread subject matter why they are free! That is at least the fourth time I have mentioned it now! perhaps you should read the thread properly!!!!!
Questions you asked
1 Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs.
2 Justify to me why, whenever we take any groundcrew flying, for any reason at all, they also get free food.
A 1 I have already told you that I believe it is a quite ridiculous rule that officers have to pay for their uniforms, what else do you want me to say?
A 2 the groundies flying with you get free food because you do! not a difficult answer that one was it?
Ken once again your post is the closest thing to a sensible answer that I have seen
however,
"Let me get this straight: I go flying & then am charged on my mess bill for a meal - do they charge just a standard rate, or will I have to sign to say I had a curry(but no popadoms!), or just a tuna roll? If I'm not hungry & don't eat anything, will I still be charged?"
If say for example I was pushing for this to actually happen which you all clearly think I am! then yes you would pay for a set meal rate no matter how much or little you actually consumed, much in the same way that every liver in has to do now!!! and when you go the mess for a casual meal you pay a set rate there as well, regardless of how much you actually eat.
So in fact the system could be incredibly simple, I am sure some
"eminantly qualified" people may struggle with the simplicity of it all but hey!
It's not me trying to take anyones food off them or anyones free food off them it's the bean counters, so if you can't answer my questions about justification without losing it and resorting to sexist and derogatory comments then I suggest you start practising because you haven't got a leg to stand on from where I am sitting.
"Clearly my threat to 'grass you up' to the cops, the next time you nick the aircrew rations, has touched a nerve, and I detect you are trying to find reverse mode. There have been several explanations on this thread, from eminantly qualified people, explaining why we get rationed",
I am in no way trying to find a reverse mode, you call the police I couldn't give a toss and you know what? neither could they! do you really feel the police are going to give a flying **** about linies taking 8 hour old scraps back to the crew room when they are destined for the bin otherwise! wake up and smell your free cofee!
"We" that means me as well are not arguing against these "eminantly qualified" people about why Aircrew get rations but are merely asking in the interests of the thread subject matter why they are free! That is at least the fourth time I have mentioned it now! perhaps you should read the thread properly!!!!!
Questions you asked
1 Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs.
2 Justify to me why, whenever we take any groundcrew flying, for any reason at all, they also get free food.
A 1 I have already told you that I believe it is a quite ridiculous rule that officers have to pay for their uniforms, what else do you want me to say?
A 2 the groundies flying with you get free food because you do! not a difficult answer that one was it?
Ken once again your post is the closest thing to a sensible answer that I have seen
however,"Let me get this straight: I go flying & then am charged on my mess bill for a meal - do they charge just a standard rate, or will I have to sign to say I had a curry(but no popadoms!), or just a tuna roll? If I'm not hungry & don't eat anything, will I still be charged?"
If say for example I was pushing for this to actually happen which you all clearly think I am! then yes you would pay for a set meal rate no matter how much or little you actually consumed, much in the same way that every liver in has to do now!!! and when you go the mess for a casual meal you pay a set rate there as well, regardless of how much you actually eat.
So in fact the system could be incredibly simple, I am sure some
"eminantly qualified" people may struggle with the simplicity of it all but hey!
It's not me trying to take anyones food off them or anyones free food off them it's the bean counters, so if you can't answer my questions about justification without losing it and resorting to sexist and derogatory comments then I suggest you start practising because you haven't got a leg to stand on from where I am sitting.
Gents, is it not time to draw this to a close? This thread has becoming something of an embarrassment. 
As others have said, surely we should be campagining for everyone with a claim to get free food, rather than nobody...
As others have said, surely we should be campagining for everyone with a claim to get free food, rather than nobody...
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blondebabe,
Are you not reading all of the replies or is it that, in typical feminine style you just love a row
Plenty of folk have told you why we have in flight rations, simply because the AV Med folk say we need to have them to operate the aircraft safely, or do you dispute THAT fact.
Because the AV Med folk say we need them to operate the aircraft safely they are provided for us, free of charge by our employers who recognise that as the AV Med folk have said to operate the aircraft safely crews need to eat high energy food during flight.
Now if you accept the recommendations of the AV Med folk, as our employers have the you must agree that the provision of suitable in flight rations is essential for the SAFE operation of our aircraft. If you also accept that in the litigious society we live in it would be simply daft not to ensure that crews eat properly whilst flying and the simplest method for that is to actuall supply the food for aircrew to eat thereby ensuring the safe operation of our aircraft as recommended by the AV Med folk.
Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-
The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations
Are you not reading all of the replies or is it that, in typical feminine style you just love a row
Plenty of folk have told you why we have in flight rations, simply because the AV Med folk say we need to have them to operate the aircraft safely, or do you dispute THAT fact.
Because the AV Med folk say we need them to operate the aircraft safely they are provided for us, free of charge by our employers who recognise that as the AV Med folk have said to operate the aircraft safely crews need to eat high energy food during flight.
Now if you accept the recommendations of the AV Med folk, as our employers have the you must agree that the provision of suitable in flight rations is essential for the SAFE operation of our aircraft. If you also accept that in the litigious society we live in it would be simply daft not to ensure that crews eat properly whilst flying and the simplest method for that is to actuall supply the food for aircrew to eat thereby ensuring the safe operation of our aircraft as recommended by the AV Med folk.
Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-
The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bluntedat Birth, thank you for confirming what I said in post 112 at 1418 yesterday.
The amount of money 'lost' if free blues were issued as well as free greens is insignificant. When it comes to replacing No 1s becasue of too many free pies then it is no contest. The tax relief for a number 1, 22% or 40%, means the officer is well out of pocket compared with the airman.
Also there is the cost of kit insurance to consider.
So let all have free uniform and then at least we could all be as smart as the starving airmen.
The amount of money 'lost' if free blues were issued as well as free greens is insignificant. When it comes to replacing No 1s becasue of too many free pies then it is no contest. The tax relief for a number 1, 22% or 40%, means the officer is well out of pocket compared with the airman.
Also there is the cost of kit insurance to consider.
So let all have free uniform and then at least we could all be as smart as the starving airmen.
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Seldom
"Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-
The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations"
I am truly banging my head against a brick wall
there really is no point to this thread continuing at all!
All of your above is fine and dandy, we all agree that people need fed for flight safety! well done will flight safety suffer if the same food is supplied and eaten but payed for by a simple system? I rest my case!
Some people will never see what they don't want to see.
"Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-
The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations
"I am truly banging my head against a brick wall
there really is no point to this thread continuing at all!All of your above is fine and dandy, we all agree that people need fed for flight safety! well done
will flight safety suffer if the same food is supplied and eaten but payed for by a simple system? I rest my case!Some people will never see what they don't want to see.
"I am truly banging my head against a brick wallthere really is no point to this thread continuing at all!"
There really is no point. So will someone please put an end to this absurd thread.
there really is no point to this thread continuing at all!"There really is no point. So will someone please put an end to this absurd thread.
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OK, last post on this, and then endex
AGE, if you read all of the posts on this forum, and on others I have posted such as the Nimrod loss etc. you will ee absolutely clearly that I am in no way a groundcrew hater, that is just stupid. It is an utterly absurd thing to say, especially after all the support I have given to you all, particularly over the loss of XV230, and how hard pressed you guys are.
toddbabe
All you keep harping on about is for the aircrew to justify why they get free rations, and you don't get the same on guard duty. I don't need to justify it, it's the current rules and regs, and thats the end of it. As I, and many others, have constantly repeated to you, we all agree that those on guard duty et al should also get fed absolutely free. I am with you on that point. Don't forget that aircrew do gate guard as well as you do!
As for the RAFP - if you don't think they would be interested, then you clearly don't know the RAFP!! They would have a field day over such a thing -just ask AGE, I think someone of his experience would agree. I am delighted that you agree with the Officers uniform argument, maybe you are seeing some light? But how many Officers do you know who have bleated on, either at ISK, Waddo, Brize, PPrune like you have, about having to pay for their uniforms? The answer is none. That rule was in when we joined, so we accept it. You on the otherhand, look upon the rations argument as though it is something the aircrew have just dreamt up, but because you have lost your free rations, you think that the aircrcew should lose theirs also, and thats what gets your goat madam - the fact that aircrew are getting something that you have now lost! get over it, or go aircrew!
As for the argumant you put to Ken Scott, why should the aircrew revert to a pi$$-poor system like the one the 'livers-in' have? Its just another one of your 'well we have to live by $hit rules, so you should too' get a life madam.
I think BEagle (as always) says, the thread has run its course, and needs to end, and therefore I shall refrain from any further postings.
Kind regards
TSM
ps, I hope you all get your free food for guards, OCpl, OSgt oh and of course OO!
AGE, if you read all of the posts on this forum, and on others I have posted such as the Nimrod loss etc. you will ee absolutely clearly that I am in no way a groundcrew hater, that is just stupid. It is an utterly absurd thing to say, especially after all the support I have given to you all, particularly over the loss of XV230, and how hard pressed you guys are.
toddbabe
All you keep harping on about is for the aircrew to justify why they get free rations, and you don't get the same on guard duty. I don't need to justify it, it's the current rules and regs, and thats the end of it. As I, and many others, have constantly repeated to you, we all agree that those on guard duty et al should also get fed absolutely free. I am with you on that point. Don't forget that aircrew do gate guard as well as you do!
As for the RAFP - if you don't think they would be interested, then you clearly don't know the RAFP!! They would have a field day over such a thing -just ask AGE, I think someone of his experience would agree. I am delighted that you agree with the Officers uniform argument, maybe you are seeing some light? But how many Officers do you know who have bleated on, either at ISK, Waddo, Brize, PPrune like you have, about having to pay for their uniforms? The answer is none. That rule was in when we joined, so we accept it. You on the otherhand, look upon the rations argument as though it is something the aircrew have just dreamt up, but because you have lost your free rations, you think that the aircrcew should lose theirs also, and thats what gets your goat madam - the fact that aircrew are getting something that you have now lost! get over it, or go aircrew!
As for the argumant you put to Ken Scott, why should the aircrew revert to a pi$$-poor system like the one the 'livers-in' have? Its just another one of your 'well we have to live by $hit rules, so you should too' get a life madam.
I think BEagle (as always) says, the thread has run its course, and needs to end, and therefore I shall refrain from any further postings.
Kind regards
TSM
ps, I hope you all get your free food for guards, OCpl, OSgt oh and of course OO!
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I must admit I was going to ask the mods if they had considered a "crayon" option for those of us trying to explain something very simple to the hard of reading but I feel even that would be lost on this one
I have been looking at this site for over a year and have never felt the need to post a reply before today, but this subject is getting out of control, so I have registered so I can have my say!! The original subject was if I remember, was that aircrew may have to provide their own rations for flights of 1-4 hrs unless over meal times. Not too unreasonable I think, I and many others manage to take to work enough food to see us thru the working day.
No one is questioning that rations should be provided (FOC) for flights of longer duration.
As for the rubbish of free rations on guard and free uniforms for officers surely this should be covered in a different thread.
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, get back in their cots and calm down, because at the end of the day we are all supposed to be adults. Remember, its not just RAF personnel that use this forum and its not showing us in the best light.
No one is questioning that rations should be provided (FOC) for flights of longer duration.
As for the rubbish of free rations on guard and free uniforms for officers surely this should be covered in a different thread.
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, get back in their cots and calm down, because at the end of the day we are all supposed to be adults. Remember, its not just RAF personnel that use this forum and its not showing us in the best light.
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ORAC, whenI joined in 95 ( I know I need to get some time in) I never reagrded it as a joke. It saddens me greatly to see how far it fell since I bailed in 2003