Vulcan unlikely at Falklands 25 flypast
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Flipflopman, if you mean a DRUM tank in the E position then 8000lbs of fuel, and 1000lb for the tank IIRC, is correct. However if it is actually an E tank then I believe the fuel is about 5600lb.
The Drum is a large, round, white cyclinder. The E and A were specially formed saddle tanks to stradle the Blue Steel Missile, they were usually silver.
The Drum is a large, round, white cyclinder. The E and A were specially formed saddle tanks to stradle the Blue Steel Missile, they were usually silver.
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Thanks for that Flip flop but I’m still a little confused – why a (slightly) tail heavy aircraft resulted from removing what you’ve described. Operational aircraft, as bombers, carried over 3,000 lbs of ECM in the far back end, as below, which would be a huge part of the CG equation. I’m be very surprised if more than that moment has been removed from forward of the ‘factory’ CG. Other than the NBS scanner, anything of any weight was in the nose wheel bay.
Time to start a raffle – ‘Guess the pre-weigh CG’. Can I have first go?
Time to start a raffle – ‘Guess the pre-weigh CG’. Can I have first go?
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Pontius,
Apologies for not making myself clearer earlier on. Yes, I was of course referring to a drum tank being fitted in the 'E' position, as I referred to a cylindrical tank, rather than a saddle tank.
Forget,
As much as I completely understand that you are fully conversant with the Vulcan, having spent your time on them in the 60's, What you must remember, is that XH558 is unlike any Vulcan in service. I completely agree that if you were to take the scanner from any 'In-Service' Vulcan, it would not cause the aircraft to sit on it's tail, however, as I have tried to explain, XH558 is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan you would have worked on. I dare say in fact, that the Vulcans of the 1980's were very different beasts to the ones you had the pleasure of.
By all means, guess the pre weigh C of G......
But I'll go double or quits
Flipflopman
Apologies for not making myself clearer earlier on. Yes, I was of course referring to a drum tank being fitted in the 'E' position, as I referred to a cylindrical tank, rather than a saddle tank.
Forget,
As much as I completely understand that you are fully conversant with the Vulcan, having spent your time on them in the 60's, What you must remember, is that XH558 is unlike any Vulcan in service. I completely agree that if you were to take the scanner from any 'In-Service' Vulcan, it would not cause the aircraft to sit on it's tail, however, as I have tried to explain, XH558 is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan you would have worked on. I dare say in fact, that the Vulcans of the 1980's were very different beasts to the ones you had the pleasure of.
By all means, guess the pre weigh C of G......
But I'll go double or quits
Flipflopman
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Mike,
When XH558 was in display fit, it had the rear 'Drum' tank (for you Pontius) fitted, and an 8000lb fuel load to counter the lack of HDU or ECM equipment.
As goes the other equipment, no, the scanner in itself is not that heavy, weighing in at 810lbs, nor indeed is the AVS pack, weighing in at around 300lbs, but as I posted previously, the deletion of the LRU's, the indicators, the Nav's panels, the Calc's, the Heading Reference Gyros, the T4 Bombsight, the AVS, the NBS boxes, the MFS boxes, etc etc, plus, the miles of wiring and relays, have altered the C of G somewhat massively.
As I say, it has not altered it to the degree that XH558 will sit on it's 4rse as soon as the jacks are removed, but for flight and certification, using the broad range of allowance, we have calculated XH558 to be only 0.5 of an inch outside the manufacturers limits.
Flipflopman
When XH558 was in display fit, it had the rear 'Drum' tank (for you Pontius) fitted, and an 8000lb fuel load to counter the lack of HDU or ECM equipment.
As goes the other equipment, no, the scanner in itself is not that heavy, weighing in at 810lbs, nor indeed is the AVS pack, weighing in at around 300lbs, but as I posted previously, the deletion of the LRU's, the indicators, the Nav's panels, the Calc's, the Heading Reference Gyros, the T4 Bombsight, the AVS, the NBS boxes, the MFS boxes, etc etc, plus, the miles of wiring and relays, have altered the C of G somewhat massively.
As I say, it has not altered it to the degree that XH558 will sit on it's 4rse as soon as the jacks are removed, but for flight and certification, using the broad range of allowance, we have calculated XH558 to be only 0.5 of an inch outside the manufacturers limits.
Flipflopman
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Something isn’t right here Mr Flip Flop, and please bear in mind that you are amongst friends, people on your side. You say that the C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit.
The aircraft will be weighed so I suppose it doesn’t matter much but ……………
You’re wrong. ( I’ll eat whatever - if you’re right.)
Mike’s numbers use ‘3 T4367 ECM cans quoted as 219, 219 & 217 lbs’.
I imagine that Mike has some Avro Manual with him but it doesn’t show all equipment. Now look at the picture in my Post 22, and the reality of aircraft which left the factory.
There are, in fact, nine cans. Which could be -
3 X Red Shrimp.
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units.
2 X Blue Diver.
1 X Green Palm.
I can tell you approx what they weighed (trust me on this, I still have the truss.)
3 X Red Shrimp. 800Ibs
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units. 900Ibs
2 X Blue Diver. 300Ibs
1 X Green Palm. 200Ibs
If Mike were to add these to his calcs I think it may explain why my eyebrow raised when you said that C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit.
You rightly said that the aircraft “is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan I may have worked on”.
The wing is the same. The aircraft you have is now nose heavy.
………………… in my opinion.
The aircraft will be weighed so I suppose it doesn’t matter much but ……………
You’re wrong. ( I’ll eat whatever - if you’re right.)
Mike’s numbers use ‘3 T4367 ECM cans quoted as 219, 219 & 217 lbs’.
I imagine that Mike has some Avro Manual with him but it doesn’t show all equipment. Now look at the picture in my Post 22, and the reality of aircraft which left the factory.
There are, in fact, nine cans. Which could be -
3 X Red Shrimp.
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units.
2 X Blue Diver.
1 X Green Palm.
I can tell you approx what they weighed (trust me on this, I still have the truss.)
3 X Red Shrimp. 800Ibs
3 X Red Shrimp Power Units. 900Ibs
2 X Blue Diver. 300Ibs
1 X Green Palm. 200Ibs
If Mike were to add these to his calcs I think it may explain why my eyebrow raised when you said that C of G is presently only 0.5" aft of the Aft Limit.
You rightly said that the aircraft “is far from an 'In-Service' example, and has had a myriad of different modifications to any Vulcan I may have worked on”.
The wing is the same. The aircraft you have is now nose heavy.
………………… in my opinion.
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With the greatest of respect, I am not going to get into any heated debates on this issue!!
Notwithstanding the fact that all of the equipment you refer to, the Blue Diver, Green Palm, Red Shrimp kit was all removed when 558 was converted to a tanker, along with the VCCP and associated equip. This was countered by the addition of the 'E' position drum tank, with its 8000lb fuel load. You will note that XH558 was the only Vulcan to carry a full cylinder tank in the rear position. This was due to the C of G shift caused by the removal of the ECM cans etc, and later the HDU. My apologies Mike, I referred to the weight of the Ballast for the scanner, which is 810lbs.
Let's not forget that I am a pretty small cog in all of this, and these are not figures I have simply plucked from my imagination, there are entire departments devoted to this at Marshall Aerospace, who do these calculations, and have responsibility for them! Obviously, I do not currently have the figures for deleted equipment, moments etc to hand so can only pass on the information that comes from the departments that do. However, as much as I respect your knowledge, I would trust MA figures over PPRuNe 'fag packet' figures all day long. Please at least try to understand that there have been a vast amount of changes to the airframe, both front and rear, so you can expect the C of G to be vastly different to a fully loaded, in service aircraft.
And with that, I bid you good evening!!
Flipflopman
Notwithstanding the fact that all of the equipment you refer to, the Blue Diver, Green Palm, Red Shrimp kit was all removed when 558 was converted to a tanker, along with the VCCP and associated equip. This was countered by the addition of the 'E' position drum tank, with its 8000lb fuel load. You will note that XH558 was the only Vulcan to carry a full cylinder tank in the rear position. This was due to the C of G shift caused by the removal of the ECM cans etc, and later the HDU. My apologies Mike, I referred to the weight of the Ballast for the scanner, which is 810lbs.
Let's not forget that I am a pretty small cog in all of this, and these are not figures I have simply plucked from my imagination, there are entire departments devoted to this at Marshall Aerospace, who do these calculations, and have responsibility for them! Obviously, I do not currently have the figures for deleted equipment, moments etc to hand so can only pass on the information that comes from the departments that do. However, as much as I respect your knowledge, I would trust MA figures over PPRuNe 'fag packet' figures all day long. Please at least try to understand that there have been a vast amount of changes to the airframe, both front and rear, so you can expect the C of G to be vastly different to a fully loaded, in service aircraft.
And with that, I bid you good evening!!
Flipflopman
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flipflopman
As a former TP on Vulcan and having flown to the limits of Avro's specified cg limits during numerous weapon release clearance flights I cannot recall being concerned with the longitudinal stability or elevator deflections at the aft limit. Perhaps Jimmy Harrison or Tony Blackman were a bit conservative in setting the aft limit but then I am not aware of just where the the corner of the envelope is most critical.
Neverthess you will be bound by the specified limit and may have to ballast.
Don't spoil the enthusiasm which shows in this thread. Anyone who has been closely associated with the magnificent Vulcan will be unable to suppress his need to add to the background and help to give the thread so much interest. I am fascinated by the added gubbinry that was added to the Mk2s which you and yours now have to nut out in cg effects.
Tony Blackman may be able to give us an insight into the trials which set the aft cg limit
As a former TP on Vulcan and having flown to the limits of Avro's specified cg limits during numerous weapon release clearance flights I cannot recall being concerned with the longitudinal stability or elevator deflections at the aft limit. Perhaps Jimmy Harrison or Tony Blackman were a bit conservative in setting the aft limit but then I am not aware of just where the the corner of the envelope is most critical.
Neverthess you will be bound by the specified limit and may have to ballast.
Don't spoil the enthusiasm which shows in this thread. Anyone who has been closely associated with the magnificent Vulcan will be unable to suppress his need to add to the background and help to give the thread so much interest. I am fascinated by the added gubbinry that was added to the Mk2s which you and yours now have to nut out in cg effects.
Tony Blackman may be able to give us an insight into the trials which set the aft cg limit
Cunning Artificer
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...night shift, Waddington '69, nurses uniform...
Then again, we always reckoned you lot on "The Other Shift" were a bit weird.
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With the greatest of respect,
Stick with it Flip flop - and best of luck. I'm sure you have a great deal to do; not least, a proper paint job.
(Blacksheep. Problem was - locking wire knocked seven bells out of the black stockings.)
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Hey hey, I'm under 45 and I want to see it in shiny white..... Failing that I'd like the cold weather wrap around jobbie that the nice photo from goose was in
http://www.tvoc.co.uk/engineering.asp
Latest engineering update, power on systems. Would be surprised if they scheduled a display appearance before mid July (RIAT anyone?)
Latest engineering update, power on systems. Would be surprised if they scheduled a display appearance before mid July (RIAT anyone?)
I understand that the return to flight of 558 has been delayed by a couple of factors:
1. Additional corrosion
2. Return of electro-hydraulic PFCU motors.
The team is working flat out around the clock to get the bomber flying again as soon as can safely be achieved. They have now finished the extra work needed to sort out the corrosion and are waiting for the PFCU motors to be returned from the OEM.
DC electrics have now been powered, the aircraft is due to come down off its jacks today and hopefully have the fuel tanks part filled. The bomb doors may also be refitted.
The revised flight deck is being fitted; after the aircraft is complete, there will be a need for W&B assessment, 200v checks and engine ground runs. Finally, when the engineers and aircrew are happy, flight tests can begin and the CAA Permit to Fly finally issued.
Whether all this can be achieved in time for the Waddington Air Show, I do not know. The whole team are working as hard as they can to return the aircraft to the skies, but their work must satisfy modern requirements and meet CAA approval. The CAA, incidentally, are very much on side.
It is entirely unreasonable to compare the Waddington Air Show with the Spirit of Adventure farce. Air shows often have to contend with cancellations; it will be a huge disappointment to many if 558 cannot make it, but the reasons are beyond the control of either the Vulcan To The Sky team or the Waddington Air Show organisers.
1. Additional corrosion
2. Return of electro-hydraulic PFCU motors.
The team is working flat out around the clock to get the bomber flying again as soon as can safely be achieved. They have now finished the extra work needed to sort out the corrosion and are waiting for the PFCU motors to be returned from the OEM.
DC electrics have now been powered, the aircraft is due to come down off its jacks today and hopefully have the fuel tanks part filled. The bomb doors may also be refitted.
The revised flight deck is being fitted; after the aircraft is complete, there will be a need for W&B assessment, 200v checks and engine ground runs. Finally, when the engineers and aircrew are happy, flight tests can begin and the CAA Permit to Fly finally issued.
Whether all this can be achieved in time for the Waddington Air Show, I do not know. The whole team are working as hard as they can to return the aircraft to the skies, but their work must satisfy modern requirements and meet CAA approval. The CAA, incidentally, are very much on side.
It is entirely unreasonable to compare the Waddington Air Show with the Spirit of Adventure farce. Air shows often have to contend with cancellations; it will be a huge disappointment to many if 558 cannot make it, but the reasons are beyond the control of either the Vulcan To The Sky team or the Waddington Air Show organisers.
Last edited by BEagle; 31st May 2007 at 07:07.
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as much as i would love to see this girl flying by waddington, i would rather see that it was done properly (i know this is the case). if time does not permit then time does not permit.
i salute the folks that are working so hard on this project, and when they have finished it shall be a majestic thing to behold.
i saw a display over at barton (manchester) many many years ago, and i can honestly say i have not seen anything so big be so versatile, and the noise......well that just speaks for itself.
its nice to see so many people behind this project, and im still chucking at the 2 pages of discussion over the cofg
keep up the good work.
TFC
i salute the folks that are working so hard on this project, and when they have finished it shall be a majestic thing to behold.
i saw a display over at barton (manchester) many many years ago, and i can honestly say i have not seen anything so big be so versatile, and the noise......well that just speaks for itself.
its nice to see so many people behind this project, and im still chucking at the 2 pages of discussion over the cofg
keep up the good work.
TFC
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God Speed from 50/61 Sqn Association
50 and 61 Sqns Association send God Speed to 558 and her crew. As an ex-member of 50 Sqn and living under the Waddington approach to 21, I await the mighty roar again with much pleasure.
I have seen at first hand the work carried out at Bruntingthorpe and you have done an outstanding job.
Damn the miserable b*s*a*d* who said she would never fly again! I only wish I was still current and would even return the nurses uniform to be on board for the first flight.
Old Ned
I have seen at first hand the work carried out at Bruntingthorpe and you have done an outstanding job.
Damn the miserable b*s*a*d* who said she would never fly again! I only wish I was still current and would even return the nurses uniform to be on board for the first flight.
Old Ned
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Many of the systems are being rebuilt with the Oxygen system actually having oxygen in it, ...........
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To expand forgets question if I may; do ALL the old warbirds (BBMF etc etc) that were designed to go above 10K have any oxy/air systems fitted?
Even though you might not ever go above 10K you would probably be quite happy to have something to breath in a fumes in the cockpit scenario?
Even though you might not ever go above 10K you would probably be quite happy to have something to breath in a fumes in the cockpit scenario?
Last edited by Green Flash; 31st May 2007 at 11:54. Reason: sPELLIGN