SAR privatisation
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SAR privatisation
Anyone know where I can read more about the arguments for an against?
I'm particularly interested in coverage and whether it would likely improve or otherwise, post privatisation.
I know coverage for the UK is total, but was wondering if capacity would likely go up in the private model.
Potential equipment for private sector contractors also interests me.
On a lighter note:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275720
There's clearly a skills shortage in the private sector!
I'm particularly interested in coverage and whether it would likely improve or otherwise, post privatisation.
I know coverage for the UK is total, but was wondering if capacity would likely go up in the private model.
Potential equipment for private sector contractors also interests me.
On a lighter note:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275720
There's clearly a skills shortage in the private sector!
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I believe the SAR privatisation is known as the SAR(H) programme in procurement (or is it acquisition?) circles.
I am also fairly sure it is a PFI programme. The outcome of other PFI programmes, speaking from personal experience, does not bode well so I would put money on post SAR privatisation coverage being worse. Unfortunately, the holes in these projects only usually appear once it is too late.
Of course the establishment will have nothing but praise for privatisation and there will be no hint of it being anything other than a complete success. To paraphrase a young lady from the 60s, 'Well, they would say that wouldn't they.'.
I stand to be corrected on all the above as my involvement with military procurement, and it was definitely 'procurement' then, ended a few years ago. Also, I was not directly involved with SABR(SAR)/SAR(H) but close enough to pick up on the concerns of some of those involved.
HAL
I am also fairly sure it is a PFI programme. The outcome of other PFI programmes, speaking from personal experience, does not bode well so I would put money on post SAR privatisation coverage being worse. Unfortunately, the holes in these projects only usually appear once it is too late.
Of course the establishment will have nothing but praise for privatisation and there will be no hint of it being anything other than a complete success. To paraphrase a young lady from the 60s, 'Well, they would say that wouldn't they.'.
I stand to be corrected on all the above as my involvement with military procurement, and it was definitely 'procurement' then, ended a few years ago. Also, I was not directly involved with SABR(SAR)/SAR(H) but close enough to pick up on the concerns of some of those involved.
HAL
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I have a number of reservations about SAR ops being conducted by a comercial operator. The Operator will always have a duty of care for the aircrew and I think it is inevitable that they will not make the extra push we are accustomed to from Mil crews. This may or may not be an example of that possibility
The full story is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/4997654.stm
Don't misunderstand me; I am not suggesting that the SAR crew at the time shrank from the task; far from it. I do suspect, though, that commercial and civil liability factors may result in avoidance of risk that wouldn't be a military concern.
BBC Friday, 19 May 2006, 12:21 GMT 13:21 UK
It was deemed "too dangerous" for a winch to be lowered from the Portland Coastguard helicopter.
A Portland Coastguard spokesman said: "There were horrendous conditions which made it very difficult for the our crews. "They are not normally afraid to do what is needed but in this situation we had to take precautions because we do have to think of the safety of the search and rescue teams as well."
It was deemed "too dangerous" for a winch to be lowered from the Portland Coastguard helicopter.
A Portland Coastguard spokesman said: "There were horrendous conditions which made it very difficult for the our crews. "They are not normally afraid to do what is needed but in this situation we had to take precautions because we do have to think of the safety of the search and rescue teams as well."
Don't misunderstand me; I am not suggesting that the SAR crew at the time shrank from the task; far from it. I do suspect, though, that commercial and civil liability factors may result in avoidance of risk that wouldn't be a military concern.
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 14th May 2007 at 22:46. Reason: Finger trouble
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Please don't start any more threads that degenerate into backbighting about SAR, we have had those already. Look in the archives. Jon don't bite, it looks like a troll.
Head down, look out for the flack.
Head down, look out for the flack.
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With the greatest respect, what the **** do you mean by that?
Can someone not ask a question without the paranoid minority jerking their knees?
And who gave you permission to stifle discussion?
I've read the previous threads, that's why I asked for another source.
If someone wants to PM me in response to my question, in light of the SS patrolling the forums, please feel free.
BillyGoat
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Can someone not ask a question without the paranoid minority jerking their knees?
And who gave you permission to stifle discussion?
I've read the previous threads, that's why I asked for another source.
If someone wants to PM me in response to my question, in light of the SS patrolling the forums, please feel free.
BillyGoat
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And who gave you permission to stifle discussion?
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On a neutral note, the Air Ambulance and the RNLI are both successful civilian, albeit charitable, organisation where a can do attitude prevails.
With the proper contract there is no reason why a civilian SAR organisation could not operate with the same effectiveness as military SAR.
The recent RNoAF cliff rescue was carried out by the crew not withstanding directives that that particular type of rescue was too dangerous. The final decison will always rest with the captain of the aircraft.
With the proper contract there is no reason why a civilian SAR organisation could not operate with the same effectiveness as military SAR.
The recent RNoAF cliff rescue was carried out by the crew not withstanding directives that that particular type of rescue was too dangerous. The final decison will always rest with the captain of the aircraft.
Last edited by Wader2; 15th May 2007 at 12:57.
ever so slight tangent...
can anyone say whether the civilian S-61N's or the current RAF SAR Sea Kings are 'better' for SAR, both military and civil?
i assume that the S-61 can carry more passengers, but what about range, sensors, weather restrictions, availablity, cost or any of the other 99 things i've no knowledge of but which are vital?
i've no real position on privatisation, just the knowledge that PFI tends to be an expensive disaster, however given the pressure on the RAF SH fleet and the fact that we don't do CSAR (in the way the US would understand it) suggests that SAR might be a bit of an expensive Cul-de-Sac in military terms.
can anyone say whether the civilian S-61N's or the current RAF SAR Sea Kings are 'better' for SAR, both military and civil?
i assume that the S-61 can carry more passengers, but what about range, sensors, weather restrictions, availablity, cost or any of the other 99 things i've no knowledge of but which are vital?
i've no real position on privatisation, just the knowledge that PFI tends to be an expensive disaster, however given the pressure on the RAF SH fleet and the fact that we don't do CSAR (in the way the US would understand it) suggests that SAR might be a bit of an expensive Cul-de-Sac in military terms.
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Everything you ever wanted to know about SAR Privatisation but were, or in this case weren't afraid to ask.
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-hm...monisation.htm
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-hm...monisation.htm
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Just curious, but I thought that the military SAR fleet was primarily for the rescue of military personnel and had the secondary role of rescuing civvies. If things did get privatised, would that change? For example, would they come and rescue people shot down if there ever was a war around the UK or would it be too dangerous for them to fly? I know the chance of that ever happening is miniscule though! 
Cable Cutter - - -bite....me????a man with my reputation....
Harrogate, this has been done to death and the answer is in waders post - 'with the right contract' etc.
Whether the political and financial will exists to create a completely civilian SAR structure without the strengths (and some weaknesses) that the military brings to the party, remains to be seen.
It will be a very sad day if and when military SAR ceases to exist - our track record speaks for itself and there are few if any other countries in the world that can boast the same capabilities.
Harrogate, this has been done to death and the answer is in waders post - 'with the right contract' etc.
Whether the political and financial will exists to create a completely civilian SAR structure without the strengths (and some weaknesses) that the military brings to the party, remains to be seen.
It will be a very sad day if and when military SAR ceases to exist - our track record speaks for itself and there are few if any other countries in the world that can boast the same capabilities.
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It will stay .... just a bit different from now.
It might even be better than now with best practice from both sides, better availability, military and civil harmonised into one cohesive force ..............................
Ooooh I was off for a moment then! No, it will be better . honest
It might even be better than now with best practice from both sides, better availability, military and civil harmonised into one cohesive force ..............................
Ooooh I was off for a moment then! No, it will be better . honest
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Again, slight tangential.
In the old DEW Line days the DEW Sites were in remote and inhospitable places. At Goose there was a 'cowboy' flying for Ogginawa (sic) helicopters. I believe he had some battered old Sikorsky IIRC. He had the contract to fly to the sites and said because the conditions were too bad for the regular military types.
So contractors can, and do, do things that the military cannot.
In the old DEW Line days the DEW Sites were in remote and inhospitable places. At Goose there was a 'cowboy' flying for Ogginawa (sic) helicopters. I believe he had some battered old Sikorsky IIRC. He had the contract to fly to the sites and said because the conditions were too bad for the regular military types.
So contractors can, and do, do things that the military cannot.
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Mil or Civvie?
Having been on both sides of the fence I have to say that my experience is that the civvie operators are better funded and equipped. They also have a much leaner management structure and are free of the dead hand of IPTs/Air Staff and the colossal "tail" that military SAR is cursed with. As for capability civvies are no less courageous or determined than their military counterparts simply because they don't wear a uniform. When it comes down to it we all do the same job for the same reasons. Have look at these links to see what a civilian organisation can do;
http://www.vtol.org/temp/webrelease14.html
http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/publ...govt/9846.html
http://www.vtol.org/temp/webrelease14.html
http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/publ...govt/9846.html
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I clipped the following from Leopold's first site:
The Captain William J. Kossler , USCG Award is given for the greatest achievement in practical application or operation of rotary wing aircraft, the value of which has been demonstrated by actual service during the preceding calendar year. This year’s winner is the Hong Kong Government Flying Service (GFS). During the course of Typhoon Prapiroon last August 3, 2006, the pilots and crews of the GFS carried out a major and heroic rescue operation in the South China Sea that saved 91 lives from two sinking barges. The demonstrated professionalism and skill of the crews and their AS332 Super Puma L2 helicopters, in the face of extremely hazardous weather conditions, were truly remarkable. Despite wind speeds of up to 100 knots, waves of close to 65 feet, turbulence, low visibility and the violent pitching and rolling of the foundering barges, the GFS crews were able to carry out this most challenging search and rescue (SAR) mission and bring 91 people safely back to land.
The Captain William J. Kossler , USCG Award is given for the greatest achievement in practical application or operation of rotary wing aircraft, the value of which has been demonstrated by actual service during the preceding calendar year. This year’s winner is the Hong Kong Government Flying Service (GFS). During the course of Typhoon Prapiroon last August 3, 2006, the pilots and crews of the GFS carried out a major and heroic rescue operation in the South China Sea that saved 91 lives from two sinking barges. The demonstrated professionalism and skill of the crews and their AS332 Super Puma L2 helicopters, in the face of extremely hazardous weather conditions, were truly remarkable. Despite wind speeds of up to 100 knots, waves of close to 65 feet, turbulence, low visibility and the violent pitching and rolling of the foundering barges, the GFS crews were able to carry out this most challenging search and rescue (SAR) mission and bring 91 people safely back to land.
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I can imagine that this is a very complex thing to sort out, what with a Joint MCA & DE&S IPT, various locations, aircraft types, currently operated by different units/services etc. Coupled with the fact that the RAF SAR is being civilianised as from 2008, deciding what is in-scope and out of scope will be a real headache. For example, does anyone know if Cyprus is likely to be in-scope?
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Would Cyprus be considered a joint-user SAR? On that basis would a Cypriot or other nation commercial operator be able to tender?
Under EU rules it may not be possible to lump Cyprus with UK if the UK SARO was a reserved contractor.
Under EU rules it may not be possible to lump Cyprus with UK if the UK SARO was a reserved contractor.