Life After RAF Being An Air Traffic Controller
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Life After RAF Being An Air Traffic Controller
Good evening all
I am 22 and considering joining the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller and I can't get any straight answers out of my local AFCO ! ! I know a fair amount regarding military life because my father was in the army until retirement so I know what I am letting myself in for ....
My local AFCO can't answer, how useful is a military licence in civilian life ?
They have sent me around the houses on this and keep saying they will find out further information.
If there are any military ATCO out there, please let me know your opinions on this ?
I have searched the forums and some suggest it isn't valid for civilian life but how can this be the case when military ATCO work at West Drayton and Swanwick ?
Thanks In Advance and all the best ....
I am 22 and considering joining the RAF as an Air Traffic Controller and I can't get any straight answers out of my local AFCO ! ! I know a fair amount regarding military life because my father was in the army until retirement so I know what I am letting myself in for ....
My local AFCO can't answer, how useful is a military licence in civilian life ?
They have sent me around the houses on this and keep saying they will find out further information.
If there are any military ATCO out there, please let me know your opinions on this ?
I have searched the forums and some suggest it isn't valid for civilian life but how can this be the case when military ATCO work at West Drayton and Swanwick ?
Thanks In Advance and all the best ....
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The truth is that as NATS don't isue the ticket they don't recogise it for future use. You might be able to persuade a civil non NATS airport to allow you to work free and this way you can get your tickets validated for airfield work. But this wont work at the larger NATS airfields such as Heathrow ETC. the Mil ATCO who work at Swanwick/Prestwick do so because the Goverment Via the Military says they can and therefore give them permission to do so. You'll find that any retired Mil ATCOs only work at training new ATC's not actually controlling.
It doesn't surprise me that your local AFCO is not fully conversant with civil ATC licence requirements. His job is primarily concerned with RAF recruitment. Many ex-RAF controllers have transitioned from military to civil ATC, but they have all had to study and pass the relevant exams for the CAA ATCO licence that is a requirement for civil ATC controlling.
If you do decide to proceed with an application to the RAF, may I suggest that you play down your future civil aspirations. You will be in competition with other applicants, and to be successful you'll need to appear very keen on all things RAF, rather than 'just passing through' before moving on. It's a good idea to research plans for the future, but try not to jeopardise one option for the sake of another.
If you do decide to proceed with an application to the RAF, may I suggest that you play down your future civil aspirations. You will be in competition with other applicants, and to be successful you'll need to appear very keen on all things RAF, rather than 'just passing through' before moving on. It's a good idea to research plans for the future, but try not to jeopardise one option for the sake of another.
Basically if the civvies recognised our training, then we'd all ship out. There would be a plethora of controllers in the civil market which will push their wages down and a dearth of mil controllers, which will completely screw the system. Therefore it's in both organisation's interests to maintain the status quo.
There is no equivalency at the moment (although with ESAR (or however it's spelt)5, there are mumblings along those lines). Who wants to be a civvy controller anyway when you're living the dream in the mob?
There is no equivalency at the moment (although with ESAR (or however it's spelt)5, there are mumblings along those lines). Who wants to be a civvy controller anyway when you're living the dream in the mob?
. Standards have slipped since you were the SFO.
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If you want to be a civillian ATCO, do it now. Don't waste your time going to the air force.
The two are very different operating environments and many have found it too difficult to unlearn the regimented (excuse the pun) military way.
You will also get to do more controlling in civvy street. If you go to the RAF as an officer, you will very quickly do more admin than controlling.
If EASRR 5 sees the CAA having to recognise MOD ATC licences there will be a plethora of controllers - albeit crap ones - on the market. But it won't affect salaries, there will simply be more staff at non NATS airfields.
The two are very different operating environments and many have found it too difficult to unlearn the regimented (excuse the pun) military way.
You will also get to do more controlling in civvy street. If you go to the RAF as an officer, you will very quickly do more admin than controlling.
If EASRR 5 sees the CAA having to recognise MOD ATC licences there will be a plethora of controllers - albeit crap ones - on the market. But it won't affect salaries, there will simply be more staff at non NATS airfields.
When we were working on accreditation for military pilot skills and experience towards JAR-FCL professional pilot licences, it was also stated that a similar concept should apply for Air Traffickers - but it would require initiative from within the branch to start the ball rolling.
Has anyone bothered yet? If not, you've only got yourselves to blame.
Has anyone bothered yet? If not, you've only got yourselves to blame.
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I know of several RAF ATC folk who have recently left on a PVR to go civvy. As already mentioned, they stiil have to endergo the same training as some bloke off the street in order to get the 'ticket'. However, they have the advantage of all their experience to fall back on while training. Where it hurts is the pay cut they have to take in order to do it. The pay while training is fairly low (approx 15k) for about 18 months. This can be a shock if you're used to Flt Lt in the mob. But, and it's a big but, once you are fully trained up and make it to area control the rewards are far better in civvy world. My mate is on nearly 80k, works 35 hours a week and has a stable roster. Furthermore, he doesn't have to dets to unpleasant places, orderly officer, butt snorkel to get promoted or do pointless secondary duties.
Your choice.
Your choice.
If you want to control aeroplanes, go via the civvy route. If you want to control aeroplanes and risk being shot at whilst doing so, join the military (let's not forget the Navy....................oh, ok let's forget the navy).
On a financial note - a colleague has just left HM Flying Club to go controlling on the civvy side and is forking out around £4000 of his own money to part-fund a civilian controlling "ticket". He is very fortunate that the company he is going to work with is providing the other part of his fees to the tune of around £20,000. I know of other ex-RAF controllers who have paid the whole lot out of their own pockets in order to pay their way through to civilian controlling.
On a financial note - a colleague has just left HM Flying Club to go controlling on the civvy side and is forking out around £4000 of his own money to part-fund a civilian controlling "ticket". He is very fortunate that the company he is going to work with is providing the other part of his fees to the tune of around £20,000. I know of other ex-RAF controllers who have paid the whole lot out of their own pockets in order to pay their way through to civilian controlling.
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cenarthfalls, firsty, you will read a lot of opinion on here and some of that is completely uniformed. Similarly, comments from people such as VectorLine ("crap ones" etc) just emphasise that there can be an 'us and them' attitude.
Some facts:
If you join the RAF as a controller the course you now complete covers a large part of the ESSAR 5 requirements. Whilst you will not hold an ICAO licence, you will be a fair way to having the qualifications necessary to obtain such a licence. Currently, no organisation provides 'bridging' training but things may change in the years to come. There is certainly a shortage of controllers and I think that, as the RAF continue to meet more elements of ESSAR 5, someone will recognise the potential recruiting ground.
Although I have previously criticised VL, his coments about operating environments is correct. As a civil controller you will be trained to operate a within a well honed 'sausage machine' where, for example, you will be expected to nail exactly 3nm (or even 2.5) between all you aircraft, hour upon hour; this takes skill and concentration. Alternatively, as a military person, you may be required to complete high speed intercepts (before a FC type jumps in here, this is now fact), air-to-air refuelling or the more routine transit tracks; an equal level of skill is necessary. The choice here is yours. Personally I have enjoyed military controlling and would not pursue a career in the civil world as, to be honest, you get a little jaded after a few decades. This is not me being critical of the other side of the house.
If all you want is money, don't bother with the military. The overall package isn't bad (take the quoted salary and multiply by about 1.5 to give you something that is more representative of the salary you would need in the civilian world to have the same quality of life) but it does not compare with the long term potential of civilian salaries.
If you want a few years of fun, good social, a bit of travel and limited opportunity to be shot at
then maybe a few years in the military is for you. 'Butt snorkelling' is no longer a pre-requisit!!
Some facts:
If you join the RAF as a controller the course you now complete covers a large part of the ESSAR 5 requirements. Whilst you will not hold an ICAO licence, you will be a fair way to having the qualifications necessary to obtain such a licence. Currently, no organisation provides 'bridging' training but things may change in the years to come. There is certainly a shortage of controllers and I think that, as the RAF continue to meet more elements of ESSAR 5, someone will recognise the potential recruiting ground.
Although I have previously criticised VL, his coments about operating environments is correct. As a civil controller you will be trained to operate a within a well honed 'sausage machine' where, for example, you will be expected to nail exactly 3nm (or even 2.5) between all you aircraft, hour upon hour; this takes skill and concentration. Alternatively, as a military person, you may be required to complete high speed intercepts (before a FC type jumps in here, this is now fact), air-to-air refuelling or the more routine transit tracks; an equal level of skill is necessary. The choice here is yours. Personally I have enjoyed military controlling and would not pursue a career in the civil world as, to be honest, you get a little jaded after a few decades. This is not me being critical of the other side of the house.
If all you want is money, don't bother with the military. The overall package isn't bad (take the quoted salary and multiply by about 1.5 to give you something that is more representative of the salary you would need in the civilian world to have the same quality of life) but it does not compare with the long term potential of civilian salaries.
If you want a few years of fun, good social, a bit of travel and limited opportunity to be shot at
then maybe a few years in the military is for you. 'Butt snorkelling' is no longer a pre-requisit!!
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LM,
Freudian slip, or is that what you meant?! I know plenty of uninformed uniformed...
HW
you will read a lot of opinion on here and some of that is completely uniformed...
HW
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Vectorline,
Does your comment about 'crap mil controllers' include the dozens of ex-mil guys that have come over to NATS (and other ATS providers) and have trained and validated successfully? Because if it does, then if they've met the same standards as you have (presuming you are a valid civil ATCO), then that makes you crap too!
There are good and average controllers on both sides of the great civvy/mil divide (as you presumably see it) and I've been valid both sides. In my reasonably long experience, the crap ones (as you so nicely put it) on both sides are normally weeded out pretty quickly.
The bottom line is that there are more similarities between mil and civvy controllers than there are differences. Apart from the fact that one gets paid very well and the other gets a chance to get shot at!!
Download Dog,
"Butt snorkling"!! Thought we were back on the Jag Farewell thread for a mo.
Cenarthfalls,
Take the more reasoned and balanced replies that you have had and make your own mind up. There are good and bad points about both career paths - i've done both and enjoyed both thoroughly. Plenty has been written about it on Prune over the past few years. Check out those threads as well and good luck to you with your decision.
WJMcP
Does your comment about 'crap mil controllers' include the dozens of ex-mil guys that have come over to NATS (and other ATS providers) and have trained and validated successfully? Because if it does, then if they've met the same standards as you have (presuming you are a valid civil ATCO), then that makes you crap too!
There are good and average controllers on both sides of the great civvy/mil divide (as you presumably see it) and I've been valid both sides. In my reasonably long experience, the crap ones (as you so nicely put it) on both sides are normally weeded out pretty quickly.
The bottom line is that there are more similarities between mil and civvy controllers than there are differences. Apart from the fact that one gets paid very well and the other gets a chance to get shot at!!
Download Dog,
"Butt snorkling"!! Thought we were back on the Jag Farewell thread for a mo.
Cenarthfalls,
Take the more reasoned and balanced replies that you have had and make your own mind up. There are good and bad points about both career paths - i've done both and enjoyed both thoroughly. Plenty has been written about it on Prune over the past few years. Check out those threads as well and good luck to you with your decision.
WJMcP
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I always avidly read pprune but never really post as I usually let everyone else have the bun fight.
Nevertheless, on this ocassion I feel that I had to post. I couldn't agree more with the comments of Wee Jock McPlop. As someone who has recently made the change from mil to civil ATC, after a fairly short career (SSC), I would agree that both disciplines have their advantages/disadvantages. After much thought, I would suggest that if you are after a long term career in ATC and wish financial reward and a setlled homelife then go civvie. If on the other hand, the deal is about being a leader and doing your bit for queen and country, then the RAF has it all. The only worry at the moment with the RAF is the C£$p way that the "senior management" of the ATC branch are steering the ship. This I think, could damage the future outlook of what can be cracking controlling.
Nevertheless, on this ocassion I feel that I had to post. I couldn't agree more with the comments of Wee Jock McPlop. As someone who has recently made the change from mil to civil ATC, after a fairly short career (SSC), I would agree that both disciplines have their advantages/disadvantages. After much thought, I would suggest that if you are after a long term career in ATC and wish financial reward and a setlled homelife then go civvie. If on the other hand, the deal is about being a leader and doing your bit for queen and country, then the RAF has it all. The only worry at the moment with the RAF is the C£$p way that the "senior management" of the ATC branch are steering the ship.
This I think, could damage the future outlook of what can be cracking controlling.