Kinloss........Whats Going on?
If the situation is so bad then surely the Station Master and the senior EngO must ground all aircraft until they can be brought up to an acceptable level. No matter what pressure is bought to bear from above, declaring no serviceable airframes day after day must get someones attention. It is totally unreasonable to expect ground crews to patch up/tape over problems and try to declare it seviceable. The engineers are simply too professional to allow such shoddy work to be allowed to happen. I'm sure that they are vey frustrated and angry at not having the resources to provide good, safe and reliable aircraft for the aircrew to fly. Equally the aircrew deserve and should expect to be given safe airframes capable of carrying out the task.
Stand up you "Managers" another airframe loss is just not worth the pain!
All at Kinloss are suffering the pain that comes with such apalling leadership.
Stand up you "Managers" another airframe loss is just not worth the pain!
All at Kinloss are suffering the pain that comes with such apalling leadership.
I mean, if something pops up in the oggin, to the great displeasure of HM, can we go and do anything about it?
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TSM,
Excellent suggestion, you should run for PM. It's the best idea I've heard in a long time. I know it is blasphemous to even contemplate the idea of by passing good old Britannias defence industry in favour of Yank hardware. But, haven't we done this before with Phantoms in the 70's, chinnooks and more recently C17's when we have had a gap in a particular area.
The bottom line is, as much as I love the Nimrod, it is well past it's sell by date and to keep cutting back spending on such an airframe is not only dangerous but morale sapping. The notion of an island nation like ourselves surrounded by water without proper Maritime air assests is frankly alarming. I know that the Red October is hardly likely to surface off the coast of Rhyl anytime soon but for those ignoramuses who are unaware, we do a lot, lot more.
Excellent suggestion, you should run for PM. It's the best idea I've heard in a long time. I know it is blasphemous to even contemplate the idea of by passing good old Britannias defence industry in favour of Yank hardware. But, haven't we done this before with Phantoms in the 70's, chinnooks and more recently C17's when we have had a gap in a particular area.
The bottom line is, as much as I love the Nimrod, it is well past it's sell by date and to keep cutting back spending on such an airframe is not only dangerous but morale sapping. The notion of an island nation like ourselves surrounded by water without proper Maritime air assests is frankly alarming. I know that the Red October is hardly likely to surface off the coast of Rhyl anytime soon but for those ignoramuses who are unaware, we do a lot, lot more.
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Er, so we havn't any working Nimrods, right? (Well, at ISK). Just a thought - but can 51 Sqn drop torpedos? I mean, if something pops up in the oggin, to the great displeasure of HM, can we go and do anything about it?
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GF,
Probably not. I know diddly squat about 51 sqns airframes, but I doubt if they can drop anything from their bomb bay.
pmills,
I agree entirely with you, but I doubt if it will happen. It will be a brave SEngO to do that, and I just don't think they have the courage to stand up and be counted.
I remember at Cranwell not so long ago (and it may still be the same) at prayers on a nice, sunny day, the serviceable aircraft count was very low indeed. The next day, when the wx was raining frogs and 60kt winds, they were all serviceable!! How does that work then? And then of course they were all u/s when the sun came back out!
I do so hope that AOC 18gp is reading this, or his minnions are pointing it out to him. Come on Sir, stand up and make a real name for yourself by being the first very senior RAF in many years to have the courage to say 'enough, this has to stop' go on, just for the boys and girls at ISK. That in itself would boost morale 100 fold, knowing that someone at the top knows what is going on, cares about it and is courageous enough to say so.
TSM
Probably not. I know diddly squat about 51 sqns airframes, but I doubt if they can drop anything from their bomb bay.
pmills,
I agree entirely with you, but I doubt if it will happen. It will be a brave SEngO to do that, and I just don't think they have the courage to stand up and be counted.
I remember at Cranwell not so long ago (and it may still be the same) at prayers on a nice, sunny day, the serviceable aircraft count was very low indeed. The next day, when the wx was raining frogs and 60kt winds, they were all serviceable!! How does that work then? And then of course they were all u/s when the sun came back out!
I do so hope that AOC 18gp is reading this, or his minnions are pointing it out to him. Come on Sir, stand up and make a real name for yourself by being the first very senior RAF in many years to have the courage to say 'enough, this has to stop' go on, just for the boys and girls at ISK. That in itself would boost morale 100 fold, knowing that someone at the top knows what is going on, cares about it and is courageous enough to say so.
TSM
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"I spent a short exchange (4 weeks) with the US Navy on a P3 squadron, and was impressed by its capability frankly. It is a good, solid, safe and capable aircraft. No, its not as fast as Nimrod, but so what? Does anyone know of any subs that can outrun a P3?"
Is this the same / similar P3 Orion that was pitched against Nimrod in the early 1990s for what is now the MRA4 programme?
Is this the same / similar P3 Orion that was pitched against Nimrod in the early 1990s for what is now the MRA4 programme?
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Whats going on ,Honour,Code and Loyalty
At the risk of repeating myself I just want to say.
I and millions of others are grateful that there are guys like you who are "On the Wall" .I too sleep under the Blanket of Freedom which you provide. Unfortunatly that Blanket now looks like a piece of rag full of holes.
All it takes is a "FEW GOOD MEN" to stand up and say NO enough is enough and let the people know who can do something about it, as they have with the Herc crash and the TRUTH will come out about the state of the Nimrod Fleet.
It fills me with sadness to here how the Nimrod fleet my son was so proud to serve in has degenerated.
I and millions of others are grateful that there are guys like you who are "On the Wall" .I too sleep under the Blanket of Freedom which you provide. Unfortunatly that Blanket now looks like a piece of rag full of holes.
All it takes is a "FEW GOOD MEN" to stand up and say NO enough is enough and let the people know who can do something about it, as they have with the Herc crash and the TRUTH will come out about the state of the Nimrod Fleet.
It fills me with sadness to here how the Nimrod fleet my son was so proud to serve in has degenerated.
Yes, Him
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Is this the same / similar P3 Orion that was pitched against Nimrod in the early 1990s for what is now the MRA4 programme?
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Heard some rumblings that the MRA4 project has ran out if money for "operational evaluation and testing" and that all the Aircrew that where supposedly posted in to start a couple of years of flight testing have been re-assigned as there is no money available. This would mean that IF the MRA4 did ever arrive at ISK, they would have to train "on the hoof" which I find disgraceful and probably very dangerous...
Has anyone else "heard" anything? A BWOS share holder perhaps?
DS
Has anyone else "heard" anything? A BWOS share holder perhaps?
DS
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IGAT
I think thats part of the problem Sir. We all love the Nimrod. It was a great aircraft without any shadow of doubt, but......like you say, it has passed its 'sell by' date and as much as it pains me to say it, I think it should be retired forthwith. You simply cannot keep patching things up here and there and expect them to work as new. It does not happen.
Nigel, If you say its 2 gp, then I bow to your knowledge - sorry.
M_H I think it very well might be the same! The fact is that there are dozens of P3 airframes in fantastic condition, sitting in the desert, and we should get them now. They have next to zero hours, and would at the very least, act as a stop-gap. As IGOT says, it worked for the F4, the Chinook and more recently the C17. The problem is, this government (and others) have this overwhelming obsession to entrust BWOS to come up with the goods, on time and on budget. They invariably fail on all three fronts!
Tappers Dad
Sir, I know how you feel, beleive me. You know that I lost several great friends in the crash, and whilst I don't share the unbelieveable pain that you are suffereing, I still feel the pain like many others. What we must not do is make the folks at Kinloss feel that they are in any way responsible for what has happened and what is happening right now. They are not. It is very clear who is to blame for what is going on:
Lets say it very loudly and very clearly:
THIS PROBLEM LIES FAIRLY AND SQUARELY WITH SOME VERY SENIOR ROYAL AIR FORCE OFFICERS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE COURAGE OF THEIR CONVICTIONS, AND WHO ARE NOT PREPARED TO VOICE A TRUE OPINION OF WHAT IS WRONG. THAT IS COUPLED WITH SPINELESS AND FACELESS CIVIL SERVANTS AND POLITICIANS, WHO'S SOLE AIM IN LIFE APPEARS TO BE TO STARVE THE BRITISH ARMED FORCES OF THE NECESSARY FUNDS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN OPERATIONS.
To everyone at ISK, I hope you understand the strength of feeling and support for you at this difficult time.
TSM
I think thats part of the problem Sir. We all love the Nimrod. It was a great aircraft without any shadow of doubt, but......like you say, it has passed its 'sell by' date and as much as it pains me to say it, I think it should be retired forthwith. You simply cannot keep patching things up here and there and expect them to work as new. It does not happen.
Nigel, If you say its 2 gp, then I bow to your knowledge - sorry.
M_H I think it very well might be the same! The fact is that there are dozens of P3 airframes in fantastic condition, sitting in the desert, and we should get them now. They have next to zero hours, and would at the very least, act as a stop-gap. As IGOT says, it worked for the F4, the Chinook and more recently the C17. The problem is, this government (and others) have this overwhelming obsession to entrust BWOS to come up with the goods, on time and on budget. They invariably fail on all three fronts!
Tappers Dad
Sir, I know how you feel, beleive me. You know that I lost several great friends in the crash, and whilst I don't share the unbelieveable pain that you are suffereing, I still feel the pain like many others. What we must not do is make the folks at Kinloss feel that they are in any way responsible for what has happened and what is happening right now. They are not. It is very clear who is to blame for what is going on:
Lets say it very loudly and very clearly:
THIS PROBLEM LIES FAIRLY AND SQUARELY WITH SOME VERY SENIOR ROYAL AIR FORCE OFFICERS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE COURAGE OF THEIR CONVICTIONS, AND WHO ARE NOT PREPARED TO VOICE A TRUE OPINION OF WHAT IS WRONG. THAT IS COUPLED WITH SPINELESS AND FACELESS CIVIL SERVANTS AND POLITICIANS, WHO'S SOLE AIM IN LIFE APPEARS TO BE TO STARVE THE BRITISH ARMED FORCES OF THE NECESSARY FUNDS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN OPERATIONS.
To everyone at ISK, I hope you understand the strength of feeling and support for you at this difficult time.
TSM
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TSM said:
THIS PROBLEM LIES FAIRLY AND SQUARELY WITH SOME VERY SENIOR ROYAL AIR FORCE OFFICERS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE COURAGE OF THEIR CONVICTIONS, AND WHO ARE NOT PREPARED TO VOICE A TRUE OPINION OF WHAT IS WRONG. THAT IS COUPLED WITH SPINELESS AND FACELESS CIVIL SERVANTS AND POLITICIANS, WHO'S SOLE AIM IN LIFE APPEARS TO BE TO STARVE THE BRITISH ARMED FORCES OF THE NECESSARY FUNDS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN OPERATIONS.
Well said that man,
Although i don't think they are officers anymore they are very senior RAF politicians. Pity they dont have the power of a proper politician.
THIS PROBLEM LIES FAIRLY AND SQUARELY WITH SOME VERY SENIOR ROYAL AIR FORCE OFFICERS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE COURAGE OF THEIR CONVICTIONS, AND WHO ARE NOT PREPARED TO VOICE A TRUE OPINION OF WHAT IS WRONG. THAT IS COUPLED WITH SPINELESS AND FACELESS CIVIL SERVANTS AND POLITICIANS, WHO'S SOLE AIM IN LIFE APPEARS TO BE TO STARVE THE BRITISH ARMED FORCES OF THE NECESSARY FUNDS NEEDED TO SUSTAIN OPERATIONS.
Well said that man,
Although i don't think they are officers anymore they are very senior RAF politicians. Pity they dont have the power of a proper politician.
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The only thing that certain RAF high 'rankers' are guilty of is not being prepared to stand up to their masters at the MOD.
It is the ticians and faceless beancounters at the MOD who have blood on their hands over the loss of XV230.
The situation at Kinloss has had so much press now that god forbid another 'accident' occurs then the lawyers of the bereaved would have a field day with the MOD and it would cost them a damn sight more than putting the situation right before that happens.
The only consolation I take from the current situation is that while the Nimrod is not flyng no other families will lose their dad, brother, husband.
It is the ticians and faceless beancounters at the MOD who have blood on their hands over the loss of XV230.
The situation at Kinloss has had so much press now that god forbid another 'accident' occurs then the lawyers of the bereaved would have a field day with the MOD and it would cost them a damn sight more than putting the situation right before that happens.
The only consolation I take from the current situation is that while the Nimrod is not flyng no other families will lose their dad, brother, husband.
Isk Decline
It saddens me to read of the decline going on at Kinloss but is it as bad as most of the contributors to this thread suggest?
The fleet has gone through previous ups and downs and i would hope that the lineys and aircrew can soldier on until things improve. Dont go relying on the airships to improve things, its down to wg cdrs to hold things together.
As for flying P3, the US Navy is having trouble keeping them airborne and when they are, they are not really in the same league as a MR2 with the exception of their TV/IR capability. 51 sqn cant open the bomb bay and wouldnt know what to do if they did. The MR4 will be very good, if it arrives, hopefully the fleet can hang on in there that long.
I saw the writing on the wall 18 months ago and havent regreted jumping ship after 31 years on the fleet - dont miss it one little bit but was lucky enough to visit ISK last week and say hello to some old friends, its the people who are important, not the establishment.
The fleet has gone through previous ups and downs and i would hope that the lineys and aircrew can soldier on until things improve. Dont go relying on the airships to improve things, its down to wg cdrs to hold things together.
As for flying P3, the US Navy is having trouble keeping them airborne and when they are, they are not really in the same league as a MR2 with the exception of their TV/IR capability. 51 sqn cant open the bomb bay and wouldnt know what to do if they did. The MR4 will be very good, if it arrives, hopefully the fleet can hang on in there that long.
I saw the writing on the wall 18 months ago and havent regreted jumping ship after 31 years on the fleet - dont miss it one little bit but was lucky enough to visit ISK last week and say hello to some old friends, its the people who are important, not the establishment.
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Come on folks, no senior officer is going to stand up and say that the Nimrod fleet is not fit to fly. Even if he did it would be forgotten in a few days, and the fleet would keep flying. What we need strong evidence (not rumour) to convice the general public (not ourselves) that the aircraft flying around Morayshire are on their last legs.
What are the actual PVR rates at Kinloss?
What is the daily OR figure? How is the OR figure declared for a weekend?
TSM
Who are the QFI's who have quit? Will they stand up and say "I quit because...."
Who are the people refusing to fly certain airframes, and what are the tail numbers of the aircraft?
HE77
How many days have we been without Nimrod SAR cover this year?
On 8th Nov 2006, a gulf Nimrod MR2 had a fuel leak in the bomb bay, following In-flight refuelling. What was the follow-up to this incident. Does anyone know the facts? Had this type of leak happened before 2nd Sept?
When we have evidence, not rumour, to answer these questions then we can go to the public forum -- big time.
What are the actual PVR rates at Kinloss?
What is the daily OR figure? How is the OR figure declared for a weekend?
TSM
Who are the QFI's who have quit? Will they stand up and say "I quit because...."
Who are the people refusing to fly certain airframes, and what are the tail numbers of the aircraft?
HE77
How many days have we been without Nimrod SAR cover this year?
On 8th Nov 2006, a gulf Nimrod MR2 had a fuel leak in the bomb bay, following In-flight refuelling. What was the follow-up to this incident. Does anyone know the facts? Had this type of leak happened before 2nd Sept?
When we have evidence, not rumour, to answer these questions then we can go to the public forum -- big time.
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kinloss..whats going on?
Rumour is not a lot!!
Seems that in a week only one managed to get airbourne (after a rejected t/o).
Oh yeah, and that one only flew for a few minutes, rtb with engine problem
Rumour is not a lot!!
Seems that in a week only one managed to get airbourne (after a rejected t/o).
Oh yeah, and that one only flew for a few minutes, rtb with engine problem
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Since the September tragedy many fuel leaks have occurred. A simple way of making the aircraft safer to operate would be to provide fuel tank protection. I understand that Nimrod IPT has been making enquiries into providing fuel tank protection but nobody in a senior position is driving this at Kinloss. Surely the MRA4 should get fuel tank protection and the current fleet should also get it ASAP starting with the AAR ac?
I also understand an ac in January flying on ops had a fire indication in the bomb bay that turned out to be false. Is this fleet really safe?
I also understand an ac in January flying on ops had a fire indication in the bomb bay that turned out to be false. Is this fleet really safe?
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If any OC Eng Wg is convinced that engineering airworthiness is not up to it, then he already has the authority to ground the fleet at his location. There is a QR (is it QR 640?, I can no longer remember) concerning airworthiness. This QR is the formal authority which OC Eng holds for airworthiness responsibility, and it enables him to delegate powers to sqn SEngOs. If OC Eng decides, he can withdraw his authority for his engineers to operate. Hence the fleet is grounded. He can do this without the say so of either the Sqn bosses or the Stn Cdr (although he would of course advise them first!)
This happened once I recall at a fast jet station. The engineers on one of the flying sqns were 'in difficulty', so he grounded that sqn. The other flying sqns were unaffected, and in fact they gained the aircrew from the grounded sqn. About 10 days later, OC Eng Wg allowed them to start work again.
At Kinloss, his authority is delegated to Nimrod Line Sqn (is it still called that?). So if he withdraws his authority, then all the flying sqns are grounded, not just one of them.
This happened once I recall at a fast jet station. The engineers on one of the flying sqns were 'in difficulty', so he grounded that sqn. The other flying sqns were unaffected, and in fact they gained the aircrew from the grounded sqn. About 10 days later, OC Eng Wg allowed them to start work again.
At Kinloss, his authority is delegated to Nimrod Line Sqn (is it still called that?). So if he withdraws his authority, then all the flying sqns are grounded, not just one of them.
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Nigegilb..Fuel tank protection may be a good idea, however, what about the fuel feed, refuel/defuel pipework and seals?
andgo.. Rtb with engine problem was a false engine bay fire indication which was dealt with as you would expect with professionalism.
andgo.. Rtb with engine problem was a false engine bay fire indication which was dealt with as you would expect with professionalism.
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ds, agree with you. The refuel pipework on the Nimrod is single skin contrast with the double skin pipework on the Tri Star. My point being, can this aircraft actually be made safe to operate? I know work has gone on to remove ignition sources but how can anybody be sure of the ignition source that caused the fuel tank explosion? The remit to continue AAR is provided by AOC 2 Gp. I would argue that it is not safe to continue AAR. However, due to the task being considered a higher priority than safety I would also argue that the crews should be afforded as much protection as possible. I would order the fitting of foam or nitrogen inerting systems immediately. There is a false view that it is only hostile action that leads to a fuel tank explosion. That is completely nullified by the plain fact that ultra modern airliners are being fitted with fuel tank protection as a matter of course.
Where does this leave the pipework? Well it is a heath robinson fix that is clearly unsafe. Not a happy state of affairs.
The point about the bomb bay fire indication is that had it been real, the only action, I understand, is a one shot fire extinguishing solution. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is another aspect of the unsafe nature of the Nimrod operation.
Where does this leave the pipework? Well it is a heath robinson fix that is clearly unsafe. Not a happy state of affairs.
The point about the bomb bay fire indication is that had it been real, the only action, I understand, is a one shot fire extinguishing solution. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is another aspect of the unsafe nature of the Nimrod operation.