UK Bans Dumb Cluster Bombs
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The 2003 BBC Documentary series "Fighting the War" had an episode dedicated to the Tornado GR4 wing during TELIC (The episode was called "Friendly Fire")
The program commented on the use of cluster munitions (BL755) and the OC of the Unit was seen on camera talking about their use. (not very enthusiatically either, if I recall correctly)
The program commented on the use of cluster munitions (BL755) and the OC of the Unit was seen on camera talking about their use. (not very enthusiatically either, if I recall correctly)
Don't worry too mucg people, we haven't had the ROE to drop CBUs since Kosovo (I think) so no capability lost.
http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/31023w07.htm
There was a documentary aired after the conflict showing cockpit footage of a BL755 drop. Had interviews with the GR.4 crew before and after the drop.
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The plan to use of area denial weapons, in the face of an advancing enemy, was probably a necessary cold war tactic. What the Russian exit from Afghanistan, and the coalition occupation of Iraq has created is not just an unintended hazard to non-combattants but is an issue for own forces too.
Apart from the direct anti-personnel hazards ther is the possibility that these weapons can be harvestedby insurgents and targetted against the occupying troops.
These anti-personnel weapons are not the only hazard to occupying forces, the number of dud munitions creates a further hazard and unwelcome supply to insurgents. IIRC, in Vietnam the VC used both unexploded and captured 105mm shells to bombard US forces. They didn't use them in guns either.
Apart from the direct anti-personnel hazards ther is the possibility that these weapons can be harvestedby insurgents and targetted against the occupying troops.
These anti-personnel weapons are not the only hazard to occupying forces, the number of dud munitions creates a further hazard and unwelcome supply to insurgents. IIRC, in Vietnam the VC used both unexploded and captured 105mm shells to bombard US forces. They didn't use them in guns either.
Suspect this stems from a string of questions that the AFPS MPs were asking on the RAFs policy wrt the use of cluster bombs about 9 months to a year ago. A string of emails later revealed that there was, in fact, no policy other than to use them if they were the most effective weapon to take out the target. However it was noted that they were due to be fully replaced by 2010 (? I believe, though the grey cells are fading proportionatly to the amount of grey hair...). The replacement was slated to be brimstone, as it was deemed that it could be carried in large enough numbers to be effective against large numbers of vehicles (soft skinned or armoured).
Not entirely convinced that it could replace all the roles of CBU, but it's a bit more PC in this day and age...
Not entirely convinced that it could replace all the roles of CBU, but it's a bit more PC in this day and age...
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Wader. You can't pick these things up and use them, because they go off when you do.
General points:
They are not area denial weapons in the same way that the German MW-1 or HB876 was. They are anti-armour weapons.
Also, the use of these things is not illegal - they are not mines because they are not designed to be 'victim initiated'. Technically, they are no less discriminate that the fragmantation you get from a GP bomb - that goes wherever it wants within its own ballistic capability.
I'd love to see their continued use, with a mod so that they self desctuct or dud safe or something, but that's alot of work/money.
PBA - you're right, you can use a CBU for alot more things than you can a Brimstone.
General points:
They are not area denial weapons in the same way that the German MW-1 or HB876 was. They are anti-armour weapons.
Also, the use of these things is not illegal - they are not mines because they are not designed to be 'victim initiated'. Technically, they are no less discriminate that the fragmantation you get from a GP bomb - that goes wherever it wants within its own ballistic capability.
I'd love to see their continued use, with a mod so that they self desctuct or dud safe or something, but that's alot of work/money.
PBA - you're right, you can use a CBU for alot more things than you can a Brimstone.
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Wader. You can't pick these things up and use them, because they go off when you do.
General points:
They are not area denial weapons in the same way that the German MW-1 or HB876 was. They are anti-armour weapons. - they are not mines because they are not designed to be 'victim initiated'.
They are not area denial weapons in the same way that the German MW-1 or HB876 was. They are anti-armour weapons. - they are not mines because they are not designed to be 'victim initiated'.
Last edited by Wader2; 22nd Mar 2007 at 15:29.
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M609,
Agreed. I've had the misfortune of experiencing the same in Laos.
40 years after cluster bombs were used there they are still maiming kids and farmers on a weekly, sometimes daily, basis - and that is in a country of just 6 million people.
Regardless of their potential benefit to any military invasion, the after effects are as bad as the chemical weapons we so decry. Those on the receiving end for decades after are faceless civilians.
Agreed. I've had the misfortune of experiencing the same in Laos.
40 years after cluster bombs were used there they are still maiming kids and farmers on a weekly, sometimes daily, basis - and that is in a country of just 6 million people.
Regardless of their potential benefit to any military invasion, the after effects are as bad as the chemical weapons we so decry. Those on the receiving end for decades after are faceless civilians.
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Bl 755
In the time I spent at the West Freugh test range, two skilled bomb-disposal experts were killed by BL 755 bomblets; so expertise doesn't help, and impact certainly doesn't necessarily set them off.
Remember the Tornado's JP233 was ditched a while ago, supposedly for PC reasons, but in fact it was a useless weapon with no runway penetration and it only took some half-brained AAA to bring down the delivery aircraft !
Re. the Taliban, I agree with the previous mailer that we should use up our stocks on them ( I notice the Matra155's must have gone, as the Harriers are now using CRV's ), and wherever possible fit Paveway kits to iron bombs - I'm not a FJ pilot but an ex- BAe technical & FJ photographer - if anyone feels I'm pontificating from a comfy chair, I'd be happy to join in if someone can organise it, all images pro FAA / RAF.
Some previous efforts at www.harrier.org.uk/ history - scrolldown to 'harrier testing' if suffering insonia.
Andy
Remember the Tornado's JP233 was ditched a while ago, supposedly for PC reasons, but in fact it was a useless weapon with no runway penetration and it only took some half-brained AAA to bring down the delivery aircraft !
Re. the Taliban, I agree with the previous mailer that we should use up our stocks on them ( I notice the Matra155's must have gone, as the Harriers are now using CRV's ), and wherever possible fit Paveway kits to iron bombs - I'm not a FJ pilot but an ex- BAe technical & FJ photographer - if anyone feels I'm pontificating from a comfy chair, I'd be happy to join in if someone can organise it, all images pro FAA / RAF.
Some previous efforts at www.harrier.org.uk/ history - scrolldown to 'harrier testing' if suffering insonia.
Andy
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Double Zero thank you.
In fact the failure rate is somewhere about 5-6 per unit (use Google). That your BD exerts were killed is tragic but I wonder how they were killed.
Feel free to join in, you were one of the 'backroom boys' they didn't all have to wear a uniform.
In the time I spent at the West Freugh test range, two skilled bomb-disposal experts were killed by BL 755 bomblets; so expertise doesn't help, and impact certainly doesn't necessarily set them off.
Feel free to join in, you were one of the 'backroom boys' they didn't all have to wear a uniform.
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The problem with some cluster munitions is that the electrical initiation of the explosive chain can be induced simply by static electricity from synthetic clothing. Put simply, it is extremely dangerous to go anywhere near them - so how do you clear them? A 5% dud rate is quite normal so expect to find a lot of UXBs from every weapon.
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Re. the Taliban, I agree with the previous mailer that we should use up our stocks on them
Cluster bombs with such a high failure rate and bombies that are scattered by seasonal rains and agriculture are no friend of ours as they simply screw with these very same civilians and help drive them in to the enemies hands.
