Civvy Flying Instructor from A2 QFI
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: As far away from work as possible
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civvy Flying Instructor from A2 QFI
Does anyone know how to convert a military A2 QFI (fixed wing) qualification into the civilian equivalent, FI(A).
I'm obviously trying to do it without breaking the bank.
Any help or experience on the matter would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance.
DD
I'm obviously trying to do it without breaking the bank.
Any help or experience on the matter would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance.
DD
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Or you could ask/wait for a reply from BEagle, who is the fount of all wisdom and knowledge on mil to civvy licensing, and a former RAF QFI, who has/does still instructed/s in the civvy world.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 504
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to wait for BEagle!
BEagle will only berate you for not looking LASORS. So I will - Look in LASORS, it is all there!
See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf
(Searching LASORS for "CFS" might help, as part of the requirement to convert is a recent check with a CFS Agent).
See http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf
(Searching LASORS for "CFS" might help, as part of the requirement to convert is a recent check with a CFS Agent).
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
So one rather obnoxious and patronising answer and one incredibly helpful and informative one
In addition to the LASORS entries, if you don't want to be paid for instructing, you don't need a CPL or a Class 1 Medical, but you DO need either to pass the CPL or ATPL exams or to have earned the D3.3 credit.
E.g., Ex-C130 pilot with 2000 TT, of which 1000 is PIC (C130) and 500 is PICU/S (e.g. co-pilot acting as Op Pilot) who is an ex-Bulldog A2 and wants to be an unpaid civvy FI - and who has never held a CAA licence before:
Pass CPL (or ATPL) Air Law
Pass Class 2 Medical
Complete the FI reqts as per LASORS
But, if you want to be paid:
Pass ATPL Air Law
Pass Class 1 Medical
Have a C-130 IR observed by a CAA IRE
Complete the FI reqts as per LASORS
There are a whole host of conditions applying if you are ex-FJ, not ex-ME or if you don't have 2000 hrs TT - my case above shows only the simplest.
You might try ELC to cover some of the costs?
Also, the only person I would berate would be someone who tells you to "Ask the CAA". Yes, it's all in LASORS, but don't bother the CAA until you've researched LASORS and find something you don't understand.
DownloadDog, if you can be more specific with your current totals (ish) and types, plus when you last practised the noble art of instructing and on what - and whether you've ever held a licence before, I could give you a more complete answer. Also the contact details for a flying training organisation which is very familiar with the ex-QFI brush-up requirements and is based near Stratford-upon-Avon.
SHT.....LAI....PAAT...00!!
E.g., Ex-C130 pilot with 2000 TT, of which 1000 is PIC (C130) and 500 is PICU/S (e.g. co-pilot acting as Op Pilot) who is an ex-Bulldog A2 and wants to be an unpaid civvy FI - and who has never held a CAA licence before:
Pass CPL (or ATPL) Air Law
Pass Class 2 Medical
Complete the FI reqts as per LASORS
But, if you want to be paid:
Pass ATPL Air Law
Pass Class 1 Medical
Have a C-130 IR observed by a CAA IRE
Complete the FI reqts as per LASORS
There are a whole host of conditions applying if you are ex-FJ, not ex-ME or if you don't have 2000 hrs TT - my case above shows only the simplest.
You might try ELC to cover some of the costs?
Also, the only person I would berate would be someone who tells you to "Ask the CAA". Yes, it's all in LASORS, but don't bother the CAA until you've researched LASORS and find something you don't understand.
DownloadDog, if you can be more specific with your current totals (ish) and types, plus when you last practised the noble art of instructing and on what - and whether you've ever held a licence before, I could give you a more complete answer. Also the contact details for a flying training organisation which is very familiar with the ex-QFI brush-up requirements and is based near Stratford-upon-Avon.
SHT.....LAI....PAAT...00!!
I take the berating.
I asked (15 years ago now) and they were very helpful (then.) Good advice seems easier to come by now.
Following 19 years in the RAF (A2 QFI*) I earned from instructing for a year (at JEFTS) before joining an airline.
I asked (15 years ago now) and they were very helpful (then.) Good advice seems easier to come by now.
Following 19 years in the RAF (A2 QFI*) I earned from instructing for a year (at JEFTS) before joining an airline.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DD
If you've read LASORS you'll see it depends alot on whether you are a current QFI and on what. To the CAA SEP is god, rest is almost unworthy
. I converted an old JP A2 just over a year ago which caused a few problems (ie non SEP and not very recent) but they have now been resolved. In all fairness, commonsense prevailed in the end. Therefore, before you approach the CAA please feel free to give me a call (check your personal emails) and I will let you know what arrangements the CAA and I came to. It also involved the help of the FTO that Beagle is refering to.
It was fiddly but has definitely been worth it.
All the best.
Blakey.
If you've read LASORS you'll see it depends alot on whether you are a current QFI and on what. To the CAA SEP is god, rest is almost unworthy
. I converted an old JP A2 just over a year ago which caused a few problems (ie non SEP and not very recent) but they have now been resolved. In all fairness, commonsense prevailed in the end. Therefore, before you approach the CAA please feel free to give me a call (check your personal emails) and I will let you know what arrangements the CAA and I came to. It also involved the help of the FTO that Beagle is refering to. It was fiddly but has definitely been worth it.
All the best.
Blakey.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DD,
I am in a similar position to you, left the Airforce last year, was an A2 on the Hawk and QFI on the Tornado, have 2500 hrs instructing (4500TT, 1000 light ac), now flying the Airbus longhaul. Despite all this experience, the Campaign Against Aviation were more concerned about recent Single Engine Piston experience and then would not give be a by on the 2 day instructor seminar.
For me, re-new PPL-down to CAA Gatwick for signature, 2 day seminar (5hr drive), some dual FI stuff then test with CAA examiner and back to Gatwick for final signature. Not easy due to the fact I live in Fife and spend 6 months away on the Funbus!
In summary the CAA aren't exactly encouraging ex-fast jet mil instructors to put something back into general aviation in the UK.
so best of luck and don't forget the seminar
Sandy Wings
ps might just gaff it and do some AEF flying 4 miles away!
I am in a similar position to you, left the Airforce last year, was an A2 on the Hawk and QFI on the Tornado, have 2500 hrs instructing (4500TT, 1000 light ac), now flying the Airbus longhaul. Despite all this experience, the Campaign Against Aviation were more concerned about recent Single Engine Piston experience and then would not give be a by on the 2 day instructor seminar.
For me, re-new PPL-down to CAA Gatwick for signature, 2 day seminar (5hr drive), some dual FI stuff then test with CAA examiner and back to Gatwick for final signature. Not easy due to the fact I live in Fife and spend 6 months away on the Funbus!
In summary the CAA aren't exactly encouraging ex-fast jet mil instructors to put something back into general aviation in the UK.
so best of luck and don't forget the seminar
Sandy Wings
ps might just gaff it and do some AEF flying 4 miles away!
Sandy Wings, if you are flying for the airlines, you will hold either an ATPL or a CPL with ATPL knowledge, upgradeable to ATPL once you have 500 hours co-pilot time.
You did NOT need to 'renew' your PPL, you needed to renew the SEP Class Rating which you should have had included on your Professional Licence.
You do NOT normally need to attend a FI seminar for initial issue of a FI rating, unless your QFI Category had lapsed.
The requirements for military QSPs are clearly spelled out in LASORS H1.8:
H1.8 MILITARY CONCESSIONS FOR ISSUE
OF A FI(A)
Credit is available only to holders of a CFS QFI
category. The holder of any other military instructor
qualification will not qualify for any credit against the
FI(A) rating requirements.
a. The following terms are for holders of a valid CFS
QFI category who has completed a CFS
standardisation check (with a CFS Agent, and
been granted a Certificate to Instruct) on
single-pilot, single engine piston powered
aeroplanes, within the 12 months preceding the
date of receipt of the FI(A) application. The
holder of a valid CFS QFI category who does not
meet this requirement should refer to paragraph
(b) of this section. The holder of a non-valid CFS
QFI category, including ex-QSPs, should refer to
paragraph (c).
b. The holder of a valid CFS QFI category who, in
the 12 months has not completed a CFS
standardisation check (and/or been granted a
Certificate to Instruct) on single-pilot, single
engine piston powered aeroplanes, will be
required to complete training at the discretion of
the Head of Training of a FTO approved to
conduct Flight Instructor (Aeroplane) Courses,
and pass a FI(A) skill test with an authorised
examiner.
c. The holder of a lapsed QFI category including ex
QSPs will be required to apply to PLD for an
assessment.
There are further pre-requisite flight and theoretical requirements which must also be met; these are again spelled out in LASORS H1.8.
Basically, if you want to instruct on civil light aeroplanes, you need to start on this within the 12 month window of your last CFS Standards check. Otherwise you throw yourself at the mercy of PLD.
And yes, the CAA certainly DO try to make it easy-but they assume that you can be ar$ed to do the necessary research first! Being rude about them because you cannot assemble excreta and hosiery correctly is hardly fair. Quite a lot of work has been done with the CAA on securing credit for military experience; sometimes I wonder why anyone bothers, if that's all the thanks they get.
You did NOT need to 'renew' your PPL, you needed to renew the SEP Class Rating which you should have had included on your Professional Licence.
You do NOT normally need to attend a FI seminar for initial issue of a FI rating, unless your QFI Category had lapsed.
The requirements for military QSPs are clearly spelled out in LASORS H1.8:
H1.8 MILITARY CONCESSIONS FOR ISSUE
OF A FI(A)
Credit is available only to holders of a CFS QFI
category. The holder of any other military instructor
qualification will not qualify for any credit against the
FI(A) rating requirements.
a. The following terms are for holders of a valid CFS
QFI category who has completed a CFS
standardisation check (with a CFS Agent, and
been granted a Certificate to Instruct) on
single-pilot, single engine piston powered
aeroplanes, within the 12 months preceding the
date of receipt of the FI(A) application. The
holder of a valid CFS QFI category who does not
meet this requirement should refer to paragraph
(b) of this section. The holder of a non-valid CFS
QFI category, including ex-QSPs, should refer to
paragraph (c).
b. The holder of a valid CFS QFI category who, in
the 12 months has not completed a CFS
standardisation check (and/or been granted a
Certificate to Instruct) on single-pilot, single
engine piston powered aeroplanes, will be
required to complete training at the discretion of
the Head of Training of a FTO approved to
conduct Flight Instructor (Aeroplane) Courses,
and pass a FI(A) skill test with an authorised
examiner.
c. The holder of a lapsed QFI category including ex
QSPs will be required to apply to PLD for an
assessment.
There are further pre-requisite flight and theoretical requirements which must also be met; these are again spelled out in LASORS H1.8.
Basically, if you want to instruct on civil light aeroplanes, you need to start on this within the 12 month window of your last CFS Standards check. Otherwise you throw yourself at the mercy of PLD.
And yes, the CAA certainly DO try to make it easy-but they assume that you can be ar$ed to do the necessary research first! Being rude about them because you cannot assemble excreta and hosiery correctly is hardly fair. Quite a lot of work has been done with the CAA on securing credit for military experience; sometimes I wonder why anyone bothers, if that's all the thanks they get.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Beagle,
The problem lies not with a current CFS category, but a current CFS category on SEP! The bit that is underlined in LASORS as of this year. From my own experience I found that even instructing on Tucanos did not count as although a single propellor aeroplane and all the basic EofC and S+L packages included, it was not piston powered. This is the main crux of the problem as a CFS category on anything other than SEP does not count.
In my own case, having completed the course with the training organisation you have referred to (who were very good), albeit under previous LASORS, the CAA pointed out that my A2 didn't count. They said I could have an FI(R) and that's it. Fortunately the FTO fought my case as I had passed a flight test including IMC and aeros and thus had these included along with a reduced (but non-specified) reduction in experience required to remove the restriction. As I said commonsense eventually prevailed but it took alot of effort from those helping me. H1.8(c) has now been specifically included to avoid similar such bunfights.
Nevertheless, the problems of an A2 on non SEP still exist. All I can suggest to guys (and girls) with A2s who are still in is to try and get someone in CFS to give you a check CFS check on SEP before you leave. Also when negotiating with the CAA, push to get applied IMC and aeros (you never know!) included at the start as it is alot more difficult - and expensive - to get it added later.
Best of luck to all as we are just trying to give something back.
Blakey
The problem lies not with a current CFS category, but a current CFS category on SEP! The bit that is underlined in LASORS as of this year. From my own experience I found that even instructing on Tucanos did not count as although a single propellor aeroplane and all the basic EofC and S+L packages included, it was not piston powered. This is the main crux of the problem as a CFS category on anything other than SEP does not count.
In my own case, having completed the course with the training organisation you have referred to (who were very good), albeit under previous LASORS, the CAA pointed out that my A2 didn't count. They said I could have an FI(R) and that's it. Fortunately the FTO fought my case as I had passed a flight test including IMC and aeros and thus had these included along with a reduced (but non-specified) reduction in experience required to remove the restriction. As I said commonsense eventually prevailed but it took alot of effort from those helping me. H1.8(c) has now been specifically included to avoid similar such bunfights.
Nevertheless, the problems of an A2 on non SEP still exist. All I can suggest to guys (and girls) with A2s who are still in is to try and get someone in CFS to give you a check CFS check on SEP before you leave. Also when negotiating with the CAA, push to get applied IMC and aeros (you never know!) included at the start as it is alot more difficult - and expensive - to get it added later.
Best of luck to all as we are just trying to give something back.
Blakey
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle,
Thanks for the info but Blakey can see where the problem remains. I do not have an A2 on SEP ac. Despite being a civvy QFI 17 years ago, and with my experience on the Hawk/Tornado I am still required to do the seminar (emailed head of CAA through local FTO but to no avail).
To add to the fun my last CFS ride on the F3 was Mar 06!
All I want to do is have some fun and put something back into light aviation without having to re-mortgage the house.
If not the golf handicap wins and the AEF
Sandy Wings
Thanks for the info but Blakey can see where the problem remains. I do not have an A2 on SEP ac. Despite being a civvy QFI 17 years ago, and with my experience on the Hawk/Tornado I am still required to do the seminar (emailed head of CAA through local FTO but to no avail).
To add to the fun my last CFS ride on the F3 was Mar 06!
All I want to do is have some fun and put something back into light aviation without having to re-mortgage the house.
If not the golf handicap wins and the AEF
Sandy Wings
'Despite being a civvy QFI 17 years ago'
Ah - that explains things! In which case you just needed to renew your SEP Class Rating and renew your FI Rating (there is no such animold as a 'civvy QFI'). Regrettably, that does require seminar and test.
I agree that military QFI-ing on the Tucano (a SET Class aeroplane, surely) should certainly be viewed more favourably by the CAA. They know that the PPL world is getting increasingly short of FIs and to include the A2 Cat on the Tucano as part of the 'recognition of skills and experience gained in military service' would seem entirely reasonable to me as one way of reducing this shortage.
Perhaps CFS Exam Wing could broker the case?
Ah - that explains things! In which case you just needed to renew your SEP Class Rating and renew your FI Rating (there is no such animold as a 'civvy QFI'). Regrettably, that does require seminar and test.
I agree that military QFI-ing on the Tucano (a SET Class aeroplane, surely) should certainly be viewed more favourably by the CAA. They know that the PPL world is getting increasingly short of FIs and to include the A2 Cat on the Tucano as part of the 'recognition of skills and experience gained in military service' would seem entirely reasonable to me as one way of reducing this shortage.
Perhaps CFS Exam Wing could broker the case?
