Jeremy Vine Discusses Red Arrows
Arrows saved
I first saw the Red Arrows as in child in the mid 60's at the Hucknall airshow.
I have been a supporter till this year. I can no longer justify my support.
How can this expense be justified when we have insufficient support helicopters to maintain the army, the troops have been sent into action without body armour and we continue to send them into action in death trap landrovers. All of the above leading to fatalities.
I am sure that our infantry in Iraq and Afghanistan will be well impressed to here that the RAFs capacity to paint red white and blue lines in the safe skies of Europe is undiminished.
If I was a soldier in Iraq setting out on patrol in a landrover today I would hear the news that the Red Arrows have been saved with disgust.
ericferret
I have been a supporter till this year. I can no longer justify my support.
How can this expense be justified when we have insufficient support helicopters to maintain the army, the troops have been sent into action without body armour and we continue to send them into action in death trap landrovers. All of the above leading to fatalities.
I am sure that our infantry in Iraq and Afghanistan will be well impressed to here that the RAFs capacity to paint red white and blue lines in the safe skies of Europe is undiminished.
If I was a soldier in Iraq setting out on patrol in a landrover today I would hear the news that the Red Arrows have been saved with disgust.
ericferret
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Exactly. Money saved on defence - or anywhere else, for that matter - is money frittered away on some daft socialist project. More cool Britannia art for Canary Wharf, that's what I say.
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Might be unfashionable to say it, but I think we should have the Reds. The military need to be in the public eye, for things other than courts martial for brutality, allegations of racism, or just being 'utterly, utterly useless'. Air shows are a big public participant event, the Reds don't cost that much (£5 million-ish, about the MOD chair bill), & anyone who thinks the money would be ploughed back into defence is a fool.
The annual budget of the team is about the same as was spent on consultants teaching civil servants to arrange their desks with tape for efficiency.
The army still troop the Colour, the Navy still do 'Navy Days' & race field guns. The Reds should continue, as a visible demonstration of the skill of the RAF, & some might even infer that similar skill is employed on a daily basis in our more mundane tasks.
The annual budget of the team is about the same as was spent on consultants teaching civil servants to arrange their desks with tape for efficiency.
The army still troop the Colour, the Navy still do 'Navy Days' & race field guns. The Reds should continue, as a visible demonstration of the skill of the RAF, & some might even infer that similar skill is employed on a daily basis in our more mundane tasks.
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Red Arrows
Well said Ken Scott.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
If Bliar et cronies wish to cost cut, then how about cutting back on much of the ceremonial cr*p that this country seems to be so good at, such as bands etc?
One day we will have no aeroplanes, tanks/guns, or ships.
There will aways be ceremonial bands though, glorifying the times when this country had viable and strong fighting units.
If you want a secure career in HM Forces, learn to play a trumpet....
JP
Couldn't have put it better myself.
If Bliar et cronies wish to cost cut, then how about cutting back on much of the ceremonial cr*p that this country seems to be so good at, such as bands etc?
One day we will have no aeroplanes, tanks/guns, or ships.
There will aways be ceremonial bands though, glorifying the times when this country had viable and strong fighting units.
If you want a secure career in HM Forces, learn to play a trumpet....
JP
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I am with Aeronut and Zoom on this one. Let's say the reds were disbanded. How much better off would this make the front line? Not one bit in my view - there would be NO tangible difference and we would be without PR/recruiting value of an internationally renowned aerobatic team.
Red Arrows costs
What the goverment does with the money saved is irrelevent. If Ken Scott suggests I am a fool if I think that the money would go directly to the army budget then more fool him. I am as cynical as the next man, and I doubt that the funding would find it's way directly to the front line.
The point is the message being sent to the frontline troops, which seems to be that having a flash air display team is important you are not.
You cannot ask men to risk their lives on a daily basis while slapping them in the face.
On the subject of the Navy gun team the last full competition was held in 1999. All training for the crews was carried out outside normal working hours. Maybe the reds could do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The point is the message being sent to the frontline troops, which seems to be that having a flash air display team is important you are not.
You cannot ask men to risk their lives on a daily basis while slapping them in the face.
On the subject of the Navy gun team the last full competition was held in 1999. All training for the crews was carried out outside normal working hours. Maybe the reds could do the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Avoid imitations
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Very clever, Eric.
So they should practice in the dark and effectively become a bunch of amateurs?
The problem really isn't that the Reds take away anything from the front line (despite what jealousies they might provoke amongst some of those not good enough to make the team).
The REAL problem is that this government have steadily and increasingly stretched all of our armed forces to breaking point and beyond whilst at the same time underfunding, under-equipping and under-manning them.
Bring back national military service. All those wanting to come and live here and benefit from our economy can show their loyalty by doing their couple of years first.
So they should practice in the dark and effectively become a bunch of amateurs?
The problem really isn't that the Reds take away anything from the front line (despite what jealousies they might provoke amongst some of those not good enough to make the team).
The REAL problem is that this government have steadily and increasingly stretched all of our armed forces to breaking point and beyond whilst at the same time underfunding, under-equipping and under-manning them.
Bring back national military service. All those wanting to come and live here and benefit from our economy can show their loyalty by doing their couple of years first.
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ericferret: Why should any money saved by abolishing the Reds go to the ARMY anyway? They can sell off their red jackets/ old field guns & carriages etc & stop matching around Horseguards - surely anything the RAF saved could be kept for the RAF frontline - fuel tank foam for C130s, defensive aids etc.
Having spent more time than I care to think about on Ops over the last few years, I have never thought, 'If only we got rid of the Reds I could have a proper DAS suite'. With the profligate waste of the current Government, & to be honest of all governments, there is plenty of money, only the will to spend it is missing.
Anyway, what 2 Gp have just spent on procuring BOCS would just about cover the running costs for the Reds for a year.
Having spent more time than I care to think about on Ops over the last few years, I have never thought, 'If only we got rid of the Reds I could have a proper DAS suite'. With the profligate waste of the current Government, & to be honest of all governments, there is plenty of money, only the will to spend it is missing.
Anyway, what 2 Gp have just spent on procuring BOCS would just about cover the running costs for the Reds for a year.
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If money saving on display teams is such an issue, Why not put all the funding (and personnel) from the RAF Falcons into the Army's control? We are in the business of recruiting for aviation and the Army needs Para's.
Sure, it will be a small budget saving, but in the current climate that may just pay for something more of use to the effort?
Just a thought.
Sure, it will be a small budget saving, but in the current climate that may just pay for something more of use to the effort?
Just a thought.
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Moving the Falcons from one budget to another is unlikely to save any money, & the personnel probably wouldn't be very happy about it. If they all had to have new uniforms then no money would be saved. Besides, the army have their own team, the Red Devils - don't know if there are others although there used to be, I did a jump with the Flying Bugles (LI display team) in 1981. Are they still around?
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The army is no longer training paras in the art of parachuting. No bad thing in my opinion and a good cost saving measure. The C130 guys have far better things to be doing IMHO.
Parachuting into war zones went out with the dinasours and is no longer a realistic tactic.
The Reds cost pennys, work very, very hard ( I live under them!) and in contrast to much of the drivel written on this thread, they actually contribute to the RAF in the form of a great recruitment tool.
The TV adverts on the other hand...
Parachuting into war zones went out with the dinasours and is no longer a realistic tactic.
The Reds cost pennys, work very, very hard ( I live under them!) and in contrast to much of the drivel written on this thread, they actually contribute to the RAF in the form of a great recruitment tool.
The TV adverts on the other hand...
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Ken Scott,
Yes the Navy still have Navy Days, but it is at no cost to the public purse and the organisers have to ensure that they break even. Yes, there is a lot of hardware on show but all the ships etc incur no extra cost for being there and the flying hours are funded anyway. The only real cost is manpower as RN and RM personnel give up their August Bank Holiday Weekend every 2 years.
The Inter Command Field Gun was last run a few years ago after the Royal Tournament stopped when the lease for Earl's Court ran out. Ericferret is wrong when he says that they trained after hours; the men who were brave (mad?) enough to take part were drafted to the Field Gun for 6 months or so. It came to an end because of funding, i.e. the wage bill of the field gunners.
Eric may be getting confused with the 'Brickwoods' Field Gun tournament, which is an Inter Establishment competition held every year at HMS COLLINGWOOD. The participants in this tournament train outside their core working day. I don't believe there is any public funding needed to run this event.
Someone told me a few years ago that after motorsports, airshows are the second biggest spectator events in the UK. Many of the public and the Harry Potters only go to see the Reds, so if you take them away who knows what will happen.
Only a fool really thinks that the £5m that would be saved by scrapping the Sparrows would go to buy body armour, etc. For what it's worth, I think they should keep going. They are probably the best aerobic team in the world and are good PR for UK plc.
I wish I could parachute................................................... .
Yes the Navy still have Navy Days, but it is at no cost to the public purse and the organisers have to ensure that they break even. Yes, there is a lot of hardware on show but all the ships etc incur no extra cost for being there and the flying hours are funded anyway. The only real cost is manpower as RN and RM personnel give up their August Bank Holiday Weekend every 2 years.
The Inter Command Field Gun was last run a few years ago after the Royal Tournament stopped when the lease for Earl's Court ran out. Ericferret is wrong when he says that they trained after hours; the men who were brave (mad?) enough to take part were drafted to the Field Gun for 6 months or so. It came to an end because of funding, i.e. the wage bill of the field gunners.
Eric may be getting confused with the 'Brickwoods' Field Gun tournament, which is an Inter Establishment competition held every year at HMS COLLINGWOOD. The participants in this tournament train outside their core working day. I don't believe there is any public funding needed to run this event.
Someone told me a few years ago that after motorsports, airshows are the second biggest spectator events in the UK. Many of the public and the Harry Potters only go to see the Reds, so if you take them away who knows what will happen.
Only a fool really thinks that the £5m that would be saved by scrapping the Sparrows would go to buy body armour, etc. For what it's worth, I think they should keep going. They are probably the best aerobic team in the world and are good PR for UK plc.
I wish I could parachute................................................... .
They are probably the best aerobic team in the world.....
Or maybe the Reds could add something to their repertoire for those days when the weather conspires against them.
