refusal to pay a £1,000 bill for flowers and tea at funeral
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RAF sends airman's family £1,000 funeral bill
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../25/nraf25.xml
Yet another Sunday and yet another sad story in the papers.
I find myself deeply saddened that this could happen given that there was so much focus and 'can do' attitude to get aircraft generated and pax transported for the memorial service in Jan.
My heart goes out to all those not only dealing with their loss but now the heartless attitude of our so called caring? masters!
I only hope that firstly it isn't true and secondly and most importantly, if it is, then somebody somewhere will have a serious rethink!
SA....
Yet another Sunday and yet another sad story in the papers.
I find myself deeply saddened that this could happen given that there was so much focus and 'can do' attitude to get aircraft generated and pax transported for the memorial service in Jan.
My heart goes out to all those not only dealing with their loss but now the heartless attitude of our so called caring? masters!
I only hope that firstly it isn't true and secondly and most importantly, if it is, then somebody somewhere will have a serious rethink!
SA....
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refusal to pay a £1,000 bill for flowers and tea at funeral
All
This is an emotive story, but I think it is worthy of careful thought - as opposed to knee-jerk posting and ranting. I've para-phrased a line for the title rather than using the one below as I don't think it the most even-handed journalism from the Telegraph:
RAF sends airman's family £1,000 funeral bill
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../25/nraf25.xml
I personally have no problem whatsoever with this. I don't want flowers at my funeral and I think they are a personal thing. I am sure the rest of the funeral aspects were covered by MoD and I'd certainly not expect a wake to be covered for by anyone else other than what is left in my account - I know my friends would drink an awful lot.
I am sure the other families were all treated in exactly the same way. At £2 per head for tea and biscuits, the funeral director wants slapping.
Oh - and this bill was not sent by the RAF - it was sent by the funeral directors
*retreats to trench for incoming*
This is an emotive story, but I think it is worthy of careful thought - as opposed to knee-jerk posting and ranting. I've para-phrased a line for the title rather than using the one below as I don't think it the most even-handed journalism from the Telegraph:
RAF sends airman's family £1,000 funeral bill
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../25/nraf25.xml
I personally have no problem whatsoever with this. I don't want flowers at my funeral and I think they are a personal thing. I am sure the rest of the funeral aspects were covered by MoD and I'd certainly not expect a wake to be covered for by anyone else other than what is left in my account - I know my friends would drink an awful lot.
I am sure the other families were all treated in exactly the same way. At £2 per head for tea and biscuits, the funeral director wants slapping.
Oh - and this bill was not sent by the RAF - it was sent by the funeral directors
*retreats to trench for incoming*
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Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said: "When the Government has spent around £8 billion on the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and at a time when the armed forces are losing personnel because many of them feel undervalued, this will only -reinforce the sense that the men and women who make military operations possible are not at the top of the MoD agenda."
Liam Fox has made the relevant point here. Damage is already done by the article regardless of whether proper procedure was followed. MoD is led by compassionless politicians a view reinforced by the attitude of MoD spokespeople. No wonder people are leaving in their droves.
Liam Fox has made the relevant point here. Damage is already done by the article regardless of whether proper procedure was followed. MoD is led by compassionless politicians a view reinforced by the attitude of MoD spokespeople. No wonder people are leaving in their droves.
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For completeness the reported story stated that the bill was indeed sent by the funeral director, after the RAF refused to pay.
It has to be acknowledged that the bill for the flowers and tea pales into insignificance alongside the damage of the negative publicity this has generated.
All expenses should have been covered by the RAF (MoD). Unfortunately the MoD is now in the hands of the bean counters with no real leadership. It explicitly highlights what a third world military we have become.
The undoubtedly expensive recruiting ads on TV may as well be pulled as anyone looking to join the RAF (military) will look at this situation and ask the question about being valued and whether ones family will be looked after if an ultimate sacrifice is made.
Why dont they pull the ads so that the funds can be made available to look after those already committed, rather than promising the undeliverable to those who are not.
It has to be acknowledged that the bill for the flowers and tea pales into insignificance alongside the damage of the negative publicity this has generated.
All expenses should have been covered by the RAF (MoD). Unfortunately the MoD is now in the hands of the bean counters with no real leadership. It explicitly highlights what a third world military we have become.
The undoubtedly expensive recruiting ads on TV may as well be pulled as anyone looking to join the RAF (military) will look at this situation and ask the question about being valued and whether ones family will be looked after if an ultimate sacrifice is made.
Why dont they pull the ads so that the funds can be made available to look after those already committed, rather than promising the undeliverable to those who are not.
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"This is apparently normal practise, my son's funeral was £1,500. I had service sheets printed, which cost £150, I was surprsied some time later to receive the bill from the funeral directors asking for this extra amount. Anything other than the'standard funeral' is not paid for, that includes flowers,etc."....
..."Going off on a side issue, my son was still alive but listed as very seriously ill when the notifying officer was sent out to see me. at my house, he had been instructed for me to get my passport and get over there asap. my son died while this man was enroute, so when we finally got over there a few days later we had to pay £450.00 for the flights ourselves. I was so disgusted by this that I later complained, and it was eventually refunded by one of the army charities."
I'll take Richard Branson's form of leadership any time thanks.
..."Going off on a side issue, my son was still alive but listed as very seriously ill when the notifying officer was sent out to see me. at my house, he had been instructed for me to get my passport and get over there asap. my son died while this man was enroute, so when we finally got over there a few days later we had to pay £450.00 for the flights ourselves. I was so disgusted by this that I later complained, and it was eventually refunded by one of the army charities."
I'll take Richard Branson's form of leadership any time thanks.
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As an ex-submariner and reader of this Forum as family have served in the RAF I am surprised by the lack of outrage that the MOD (RAF) have not rapidly stepped forward and said "Its a break down in communications we will settle this bill". Do the RAF not have a PR Department who were almost certainly asked to comment before publication. Do they really believe any publicity is good publicity.
It is s disgrace that any and I repeat any Government Department could treat the family of a member of their staff who died in the line of action for that Government. For the RAF to act in such a manner is dishonorable at its very best.
Over on RR we feel differently
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/ind...c&t=4545#74881
Bob Head
It is s disgrace that any and I repeat any Government Department could treat the family of a member of their staff who died in the line of action for that Government. For the RAF to act in such a manner is dishonorable at its very best.
Over on RR we feel differently
http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/ind...c&t=4545#74881
Bob Head
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Well, unfortunately, this is a Kinloss c**ck up, period. Despite what we might think is the right thing to do, it has always been MOD policy that catering at funerals, even full military ones, is not paid for out of public funds. It appears that this particular message was not made known to the funeral directors and Gary's family. To make matters worse, for the Kinloss administrators, this particular business was discussed and written about, at some length in the period leading up to the funerals. I'm dismayed that this has happened.
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It seems hard to imagine that a) no-one spotted this and b) no-one had the balls to do anything about it.
Wake up RAF, it's a real and different world out there.
Wake up RAF, it's a real and different world out there.
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Without commenting on this particular issue, where would you draw the line on funeral costs? In what circumstances would you you decide if a funeral was to be at public or personal expense. Anyone very sadly killed on active service by opposition should indeed be granted a funeral at public expense but what if said person was killed in a road accident and nothing to do with enemy action? The lines get blurred sometimes and it is easy to be wise after the event. What if a champagne celebration had been arranged instead of tea and biscuits? Who pays? I am just pointing out that it is not easy to be "correct"
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The funerals that took place after the Hercules tragedy were attended by hundreds of colleagues and family. I would have no problem whatsoever with using public funds to help out with the costs of such funerals. And no, nobody was drinking champagne.
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nigegilb -nor would I or most people have any problem with that but I was just making the point that it is not always so simple (BTW champange perhaps ought to be consumed sometimes to mark the extraordinary achievments). The rules are in place and even if we do not agree with them we have to work by them. It seems to me that in the instance cited above it was a bit of stupidity on someone's part that the rules were not fully and clearly explained BEFORE the arrangements were made. Perhaps the miscreant whose job it was to look after such matters should be made to pay but that does not happen in the real world of "public service" does it?
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Fair enough. Sean Rayment wrote the article and it would have been standard practice to have contacted the MoD a couple of days ago to show them the story and offer the chance to comment. I am gobsmacked by the insensitivity on display by the MoD spokesmen once more. There are better more imaginative ways of dealing with these issues. I am so, so glad I left.
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There are 2 issues at play here. The first is what should reasonably be covered in terms of funeral expenses, and I'm sure the administration team and budget controllers will have ensured they are squeaky clean on 'process'. The other is that having made something of a cock-up how does the organisation un-cock it? In this respect I think it is quite clear that to meet Commander's Intent and preserve the reputation of the Service this bill should have been quietly and quickly settled.
An organisation isn't entirely judged by whether it makes mistakes or not - but on how it responds to those mistakes afterwards!
An organisation isn't entirely judged by whether it makes mistakes or not - but on how it responds to those mistakes afterwards!
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life!
These things happen in life; we need to keep it in perspective out with the emotion if at all possible - Gary had this skill. I had hoped to attend his funeral; he added much colour to my life whilst on the Sqn - the 6 hrs incident, Cat renewals, Kef etc etc come immediately to mind!! The world is such a boring place without people like Gary. I did however make the Memorial - I thought it was outstanding and a fantastic effort from the team who made it all happen, DW and the rest whoever they were did a great job from my perspective. The day offered a real positive out of a clear tragedy.
Who do I send the cheque to? Life is too short to worry about such things, as we've just been reminded of once again with Pete Whitto. These are gods, beaurocrats aren't - life!
Thinking of Pete, hope to see you all at his Memorial again, in an effort to take the positive out of that day - another top chap who enriched my life!
Who do I send the cheque to? Life is too short to worry about such things, as we've just been reminded of once again with Pete Whitto. These are gods, beaurocrats aren't - life!
Thinking of Pete, hope to see you all at his Memorial again, in an effort to take the positive out of that day - another top chap who enriched my life!
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It seems to me that in the instance cited above it was a bit of stupidity on someone's part that the rules were not fully and clearly explained BEFORE the arrangements were made. Perhaps the miscreant whose job it was to look after such matters should be made to pay but that does not happen in the real world of "public service" does it?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Proof (as if any were needed) that the Service is indeed run by bean-counters, and as the rules do not permit use of Public Monies for this, they selected the "score major PR own goal for RAF" option.
Just curious, but isn't there some Unit or Mess Fund that could have covered this, until the knob responsible was made to pay before being shot at dawn?
Just curious, but isn't there some Unit or Mess Fund that could have covered this, until the knob responsible was made to pay before being shot at dawn?
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You don't need proof that the AFs are run by bean counters. They always have been and they always will be and I for one are glad of that.
But I do think that the Government should pay for the funeral of servicemen. And whilst we are at it why won't they pay for the funeral of ex-servicemen. These men and women served for our county and surely deserve to have the government pay for their funerals. And whilst we are at it, what about service widows and widowers. Surely, the sacrifice that these people gave should qualify for funeral expenses. So, I say that the government should pay for the funerals of all servicemen , all ex servicemen, all servicemens widows, all ex servicemen's widows.... and whilst we are at it, what about the children of servicemen? surely the sacrifice that these children gave must qualify for a free funeral? So thats all servicemen, all ex- servicemen, all servicemens widows and widowers, all ex-servicemens widows and widowers, all servicemens children, all ex servicemens children....and whilst we are at it, what about the cousins, uncles and Aunts of servicemen...surely they deserve a free funeral more than anyone, especially given the sacrifice they have given...
But I do think that the Government should pay for the funeral of servicemen. And whilst we are at it why won't they pay for the funeral of ex-servicemen. These men and women served for our county and surely deserve to have the government pay for their funerals. And whilst we are at it, what about service widows and widowers. Surely, the sacrifice that these people gave should qualify for funeral expenses. So, I say that the government should pay for the funerals of all servicemen , all ex servicemen, all servicemens widows, all ex servicemen's widows.... and whilst we are at it, what about the children of servicemen? surely the sacrifice that these children gave must qualify for a free funeral? So thats all servicemen, all ex- servicemen, all servicemens widows and widowers, all ex-servicemens widows and widowers, all servicemens children, all ex servicemens children....and whilst we are at it, what about the cousins, uncles and Aunts of servicemen...surely they deserve a free funeral more than anyone, especially given the sacrifice they have given...
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Sadly the mistake falls with the Visiting Officer who is responsible for informing the NOK what is an admissible expense and not. Although I do not agree with the rule, JSP 751 clearly states what con not be claimed back under a privately arranged funeral.