refusal to pay a £1,000 bill for flowers and tea at funeral

[London Mil]

Those who have been involved in this sort of stuff know exactly what the Service (ie the public) pays for and what is not paid for. They will also know that organisations such as the Benevolent and Dependants' funds do some amazing things, very quickly. If we really want to talk about finances at such a sorry time, surely it is enough to say that next of kin shoud not be ending-up out of pocket.
I just find it so sad that the subject has even been raised.

[An Teallach]

That's fine then: It's all the VO's fault. We can all rest easy.

The JSP was written at a time when deaths on active service were few and it would probably not be justifiable for the public purse to pay for catering & flowers at the funeral of SAC Bloggs who happened to die in a car crash while stationed at RAF Little Snoring. This funeral (among a series of RAF funerals) was of a totally different order.

Actually, this and the RAF's generally poor record on PCM is the the fault of a generation of senior administrators who appear to worship JSPs as Holy Writ, fail to see the bigger picture by sticking doggedly to their own remit and who have forgotten that rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools. Important details therefore fall through the cracks.

There are often ways round these things. The problem could probably have been solved by simply phoning Messrs Rattray & Sons, agreeing to lose the original invoice and having them re-submit their bill in a slightly less itemised fashion.

[gravity victim]

As an occasional (and non-military) reader of both this forum and ARRSE I was moved by the very strong reaction to this story over there. They are talking about a whip-round to settle the bill. Good to see the great solidarity that lies beneath all the normal inter-service banter. All I can do is fire off a letter to my MP asking him to take up the cause of full payment of military funerals by HMG with Browne. If the sandwiches were mostly feeding Service personnel the MOD probably saved on a meal anyway...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Vec,

Have a word with yourself,

Back on topic,

Is it not possible to cover that kind of expense from a mess fund, or simply from the CO's fund or similar? Surely that's the point of contingency funds....

[Zhivago]

Shame

People can we really be arguing over such an emotive topic? These people died in the service of their country...on an operational sortie whether by accident or enemy action. I would expect that they and their families are treated in such a manner as to honour their sacrifice.
If the MOD prefer to look after the servicemen and women in their 'Care' by the articles of some JSP, or any other such document they quote so fondly, well shame on them.
In my humble opinion this should not have been an issue and as so rightly stated not have gone so far as the press actually reporting upon it.
However, back to the point of the article, no family should be or expected to be finacially disadvantaged by a death in such tragic circumstances.
Surely, Kinloss could help? Has KInloss been contacted?
If not some of the much vaunted welfare and care communities what about the Squadron and aircrew associates.
If memory serves, is there not a tradition that an airman (Officer or NCO) who dies on active duty has his mess bill 'Written Off'. That is, after all and sundry have toasted his departure on the said Mess Bill.
For the sake of £2 per head teas and biscuits, could those partaking in the traditional last drinks, not just reach into their pockets one last time?
Maybe I am too traditionalist in my opinion but I was always taught and over time have come to believe that we look after our own, irrespective of what an AP or JSP proclaims to be the minium effort required!
This is a situation that, should not have arisen, should and can be addressed.

[Mmmmnice]

Yet another RAF/MOD PR disaster - the point is not who failed to do what or what regs will/will not allow the the public purse to pay for etc etc. The real impact is what anyone thinking of joining will make of their future potential employer; and what effect it has on the thought process of anyone who is on the cusp of leaving and is still weighing up the pros and cons. Personally, I've jumped, but it almost feels like someone is pushing me just in case I try to grasp something as I go!

[Maple 01]

F*** it, the Arssers are right, where do I send my cheque? We all wear/wore Air Force Blue, it's a matter of honour, we're (the wider RAF community) bigger than the MoD and if all else fails should look after our own. Do right by the family then shame the rule-makers in the press

[Grimweasel]

Another thing to bear in mind is that the media will use ANY story concerning government departments as an excuse to bash / belittle the Blair cabinet.

Funny how they quoted Liam Fox but didn't ask the labour lot for their view. Good stories have no hope of making news while Blair and his mob are still in power. The media will continue to use the Forces as a good easy way of picking at this government. That's why, week after week, these PR disasters are hitting the news stands!

[nigegilb]

Grimweasel, the MoD were regularly asked to provide a politician, Ingram/Reid to answer the claims I was making about the Herc crash. They refused on every occasion. They bury their heads in the sand and hope the bad news will go away. The MoD has been given this article to comment on. Hence the quotes from the MoD spokesman. It used to be Wg Cdr Trevor Field, he has moved on. The post is currently gapped by a couple of Sqn Ldrs. Don't suppose they will be in post for too long after this. What is also sad is the fact that we all know that the RAF is not heartless. RAF Lyneham from the Stn Cdr down was fantastic in coping with the Herc crash. The idiots in the MoD have done an awful lot of damage over this. It is truly sickening.

[professor moriarty]

Disgusted

Glad I left and even more glad that I didn't go backwhen they were chasing me to join the reserves. Rules may be rules, but what arguement is that when someone has been lost in such circumstances? Those behind the decision should be ashamed.

[Topsy Turvey]

Shame on Stn Cdr!

The Stn Cdr / OC Admin should call on Mr Andrews first thing this morning and personally apologise for this **** up.

Whatever the regulations do / do not allow, as this brave airman had a military funeral the RAF (Kinloss or PTC?) should pay the undertakers bill.

Once it became clear that not all the costs could be meet under the "regulations" some other way should & could have been found to pay the bill (Welfare mess funds etc) The undertaker should not have been instructed to approach the family.

[plans123]

After reading all the message boards tonight, both
Arrse
and
E-Goat
are on the verge of organising whip rounds for this. As stated by others on here, this may well 'go away' on Monday morning, but the bad taste left in peoples mouths still remains.
Utterly appalled.

[Blacksheep]

...who died in the line of action for that Government.

I don't know about the rest of you but I never served any Government.

I swore an oath of allegiance, true: but that was to HM The Queen and her heirs and successors. If I had been unfortunate enough to have been killed in action I would have died for my country.

For centuries the only thing any government has been prepared to give dead servicemen for free was a wooden box (or for matelots, a canvas sheet and a cannon ball) and six rounds of ammunition for the salute. Many didn't even get that. In the 21st century its time for a change.

[AC Ovee]

A whip round is not required. Mr Andrews has made it clear, in the newspaper article, that he's not bothered about the money. His point is that it is the RAF/MOD who ARE bothered about the money. He is absolutely correct about that. Every administrator in the higher echelons of the station knew that there would be hundreds of people at every one of those funerals and that the associated (expensive?) catering bills would not be funded publicly. If the MOD has a matter of some obvious sensitivity to convey to bereaved families, it is the responsibility of a well-briefed senior officer, in uniform, to speak in person to the next of kin. Someone has suggested that the Visiting Officer has failed to convey the policy. Well, that is entirely unfair. VOs, by the nature of their personal assignment, must not be expected to convey bad news and then answer the awkward questions that are sure to follow. We should have officers trained and briefed to do that.

[Strato Q]

VOs, by the nature of their personal assignment, must not be expected to convey bad news and then answer the awkward questions that are sure to follow. We should have officers trained and briefed to do that.

Disagree and agree. Having been a VO, your main purpose is to be the link between the family and the Service, and that includes passing on bad news and fielding their awkward questions. The VO ideally is someone who knows the deceased and NOK and therefore will by default not be trained for the task. I received a brief but it did not mean I could answer all the questions and had to refer back to those in the know. My point is this situation should have been avoided.

[Line35]

Where Do We Send The Money ?......

I have e-mailed OC 120 Sqn - CC the Stn Cdr - to ask if there is a means where donations (mine to start off with) could be made. I will post if I get a response.

Signed Appalled of High Wycombe

[nigegilb]

Line 35 I would like to do the same would you post the relevant emails on the thread?

[South Bound]

Guys, don't get carried away with the terminology - the chap/chapess that provides the bad news is a Notifying Officer (this is a once only task and should be performed by the Stn Cdr if available), the one that then assists the family with all the arrangements etc is the visiting/assisting officer (ongoing task, can take many months to assist getting things in order).

There is training available for this and Units should have a fair number of people ready to go, although perhaps we should all make it our business to attend in case it becomes our sorry duty one day.

Bottom line is the Rule is a crap one (wherever any possible error/comms faff happened) and once again the RAF has scored a terrific own goal. Makes you feel proud to be a part of it...

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Yet another sad indictment of the RAF PR Dep's in ability to do its job properly and say hey its covered, we are sorry. After all there is still the underspends in strike and PTC, different budgets but we all know it disappears from one budget and magically reappears in others when the high and mighty want new toys!

Come on MOD show US that the sacrifices we make are valued by you.

[endplay]

Having officiated at the funeral of a colleague who died due to injuries received (although several years after the event) and had dealings with his widow I would say that the RAF was pretty bloody good at the whole thing. It was a full military funeral with everything arranged, in continuous consultation with the family who had approval of the entire process, at no cost. As some family members lived in the southern hemisphere my colleagues body was held over at the undertakers for an extra 3 days - again at no cost to the family.
The only cost was the reception and as this is a matter of personal choice it is appropriate, IMHO, that this falls to the family who can put on as big or as small a reception as they wish to honour their loved one.
The notifying officer was able to make all of this clear and was able to ensure, by discreet enquiry, that it wouldn't be a financial burden. The RAF BF has just increased its death grant from £6K+ to £10K to help with this and similar issues.
Once again this site has allowed itself to be whipped up by an agenda driven press who could have put an entirely different slant on this story had they chosen to do so