Did a Meteor ever go Supersonic?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did a Meteor ever go Supersonic?
Chaps,
Perhaps you might be able to settle a discussion that I had with my Sister's Father-in-Law. He is a lucid Ex Halifax Bomber Nav of fairly mature years (!) who proclaims to have witnessed a Meteor F? go supersonic in about 1948. He was on the ground, and the said fighter carried out the flight overhead, clearly in a full power dive. His recollection is a 'sonic' boom and hence his stance.
I maintained that the Meteor had neither the wing form, engine intake design, or the thrust to allow this to happen, and I thought there would be a very good chance that the fighter would go out of control due to compressibility effects around the very small tail.
What do you all think? Possible?
My only possible explaination for the 'Booms', was the surging of both engines due to intake compressibilty. However, I stand to be corrected as I have been horribly wrong before!!
All Ex 'Meatbox' drivers please drag the memory banks and help me out. Personally, I think it would be fantastic if I could prove the Old Fella right!!!
Regards in anticipation,
Advo
Perhaps you might be able to settle a discussion that I had with my Sister's Father-in-Law. He is a lucid Ex Halifax Bomber Nav of fairly mature years (!) who proclaims to have witnessed a Meteor F? go supersonic in about 1948. He was on the ground, and the said fighter carried out the flight overhead, clearly in a full power dive. His recollection is a 'sonic' boom and hence his stance.
I maintained that the Meteor had neither the wing form, engine intake design, or the thrust to allow this to happen, and I thought there would be a very good chance that the fighter would go out of control due to compressibility effects around the very small tail.
What do you all think? Possible?
My only possible explaination for the 'Booms', was the surging of both engines due to intake compressibilty. However, I stand to be corrected as I have been horribly wrong before!!
All Ex 'Meatbox' drivers please drag the memory banks and help me out. Personally, I think it would be fantastic if I could prove the Old Fella right!!!
Regards in anticipation,
Advo
Ah - the 'power dive'. Another aeronautical mystery ranking alongside the 'tail spin' and the 'air pocket'...........
I cannot imagine any Meatbox going supersonic more than once - because that would probably have been unsurvivable.
I cannot imagine any Meatbox going supersonic more than once - because that would probably have been unsurvivable.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I knew a chap who thought he saw M0.9, but everything was shaking itself to pieces and he lost his tailplane before he could grab the "blind". (Mk 1 seat). His chute deployed so low that he broke his back. But the Bedouin took great care of him and he lived to fly again. (And die in a later Javelin prang, I believe!). No way could a Meatbox go supersonic and survive.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forget,
Actually no, I have the utmost respect for the gentleman, to such an extent that I questioned my own understanding of High Speed Aerodynamics. What I seem to have got however, is an affirmation of my thesis.
However, where did his 'Sonic Boom' come from? Engine Surge? or other effect. I would have thought a 'Meatbox' doing anything over about 0.8M could make any number of noises!!!!
Can any of you (Meteor) experienced chaps remember the Vne or Mne limits?
Regards,
Advo
Actually no, I have the utmost respect for the gentleman, to such an extent that I questioned my own understanding of High Speed Aerodynamics. What I seem to have got however, is an affirmation of my thesis.
However, where did his 'Sonic Boom' come from? Engine Surge? or other effect. I would have thought a 'Meatbox' doing anything over about 0.8M could make any number of noises!!!!
Can any of you (Meteor) experienced chaps remember the Vne or Mne limits?
Regards,
Advo
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mk 8 vne was either 510 or 530, can't remember after all this time.
NF11 was much reduced at 430, because of the big doors over the guns and ammo boxes outboard of the engines.
I suggest that anyone who saw over about .82 had a wildly overreading mach meter.
NF11 was much reduced at 430, because of the big doors over the guns and ammo boxes outboard of the engines.
I suggest that anyone who saw over about .82 had a wildly overreading mach meter.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Henry,
Thank you, that is helpful. 510Kts @ 25- 30k would equate to about 0.8M. Looking at the physical design of the a/c, I personally couldn't see it being able to achieve much more.
However, what about the engines? were they prone to surge at higher speeds, were there any limitations?
Advo
Thank you, that is helpful. 510Kts @ 25- 30k would equate to about 0.8M. Looking at the physical design of the a/c, I personally couldn't see it being able to achieve much more.
However, what about the engines? were they prone to surge at higher speeds, were there any limitations?
Advo
<<I knew a chap who thought he saw M0.9, but everything was shaking itself to pieces and he lost his tailplane before he could grab the "blind". (Mk 1 seat). His chute deployed so low that he broke his back. But the Bedouin took great care of him and he lived to fly again. (And die in a later Javelin prang, I believe!).>>
Reminds me of the cat called Lucky...
Reminds me of the cat called Lucky...
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Yorks
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meteor Supersonics...
Asked my father about this. He flew with chap picked up by Bedouin before the incident took place. Stated that he recalled that it was a 208 Sqn pilot although at this stage "mad as hatters" came into the conversation and we moved on.
His answer to the possibility of the Meteor going supersonic was that it could have happened as long as the fuselage and wings were occupying different parts of the sky - otherwise no chance.
Recalls Vne for Mk 8 as 535 and Mne as 0.8.
His answer to the possibility of the Meteor going supersonic was that it could have happened as long as the fuselage and wings were occupying different parts of the sky - otherwise no chance.
Recalls Vne for Mk 8 as 535 and Mne as 0.8.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to AP 2210H & J ( Meteor 8/9) Pilots notes, the limits were : from sea level to 2000ft 515Knots; 2000 to 20000 M0.80 and above 20000 no limit. The T7 Notes (AP 2210G) show slightly lower limits. From memory, compressibility precluded excursions much past M0.80 as there would be wing drops and control could be lost till denser air was encountered. I do not think that anyone could get a Meatbox through M1.0 although I would like to be proved wrong.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
advocatusDIABOLI: I have not heard of, or experienced, surge at any speed or altitude with a Derwent, it just kept going regardless of how it was treated, or for that matter, mistreated.
I never forced a Meteor to an out of control in compressibility stage, though I did witness it once
I was cruising northbound in the middle of England at about 35,000ft when I saw a gleam up high in my 11 o"clock, it was a Mk 8 tipping in on me on a high quarter.
He started to flick just as I lost sight of him in my 7 o"clock, and was still flicking completely out of control when he reappeared at about my 5 o"clock.
The silly bugger disappeared into the cloud tops, which were at about 25,000ft, and I didn't see any report of an accident next day so I presume he recovered.
I never forced a Meteor to an out of control in compressibility stage, though I did witness it once
I was cruising northbound in the middle of England at about 35,000ft when I saw a gleam up high in my 11 o"clock, it was a Mk 8 tipping in on me on a high quarter.
He started to flick just as I lost sight of him in my 7 o"clock, and was still flicking completely out of control when he reappeared at about my 5 o"clock.
The silly bugger disappeared into the cloud tops, which were at about 25,000ft, and I didn't see any report of an accident next day so I presume he recovered.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At RAF "At Home" airshows in the early fifties it was customary to fly a Hunter or Sabre faster than the speed of sound. If this was not possible,I remember a Meteor being flown in a fast pass along the runway while some airman would let of two firecrackers from the tower. This happened on one occasion at Wattisham. Maybe this is what the gentleman saw.
Cheers,
Dave
Cheers,
Dave
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engines
FWIW centrifugal compressors are far less sensitive than axial flow when it comes to surging. They are also less efficient which is why they have fallen into disuse for 'jet' propelled aircraft.
Only flew the Meatbox briefly at Worksop (Asymmetric Course on 7s' and 8s') but concur with everything said above. Good Book by Nick Carter "Meteor EJECT" via Woodfield Publishing, might convince any doubters'.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brings a tear to my eyes. Have you noticed guys, it only needs one post by one of our younger brethen asking a question about the the Meteor, and us oldies immediately turn out in force with the answer and our reminiscencies.
I remember that feeling at about .82M as the controls went solid and the right wing started to drop. Still happened on the NF14 at the same speed but you really had to be pointing downhill. The old girl would only reach aroun .74M in level flight which is why the Canberras were often restricted to about .7 in the big exercises, so that the Meatboxes had a sporting chance of catching one!!
I remember that feeling at about .82M as the controls went solid and the right wing started to drop. Still happened on the NF14 at the same speed but you really had to be pointing downhill. The old girl would only reach aroun .74M in level flight which is why the Canberras were often restricted to about .7 in the big exercises, so that the Meatboxes had a sporting chance of catching one!!