Prefix to name and associated rank
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Going back to the original question, I try to make a habit of NOT calling MDs "Doctor" as almost nonel of them are proper academic doctors (PhDs).
In addition, they (or at least the ones who are senior in hospitals) have the rather silly affectation of losing their work title and wanting to be called "MR" if they become a consultant.
In addition, they (or at least the ones who are senior in hospitals) have the rather silly affectation of losing their work title and wanting to be called "MR" if they become a consultant.
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In addition, they (or at least the ones who are senior in hospitals) have the rather silly affectation of losing their work title and wanting to be called "MR" if they become a consultant.
I believe that applies in the main to surgical specialisations and has come about from their work on RN warships when large canvas sails were the fashion. Not really an affectation at all, merely a means of distinguishing themselves- no different to a military rank system in terms of seniority.
I believe that applies in the main to surgical specialisations and has come about from their work on RN warships when large canvas sails were the fashion. Not really an affectation at all, merely a means of distinguishing themselves- no different to a military rank system in terms of seniority.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
[quote Phil_R wrote:]"Hello, Wing Commander Bloggs" is presumably correct but does sound a bit Miss Marple [/quote]
Agree, makes me cringe when introduced that way but that is what the old dears love.
There is, or used to be, a whole lesson on that subject.
'Dear Wing Commander Bloggs' pretentious from a subordinate, acceptable from a superior as is 'Dear Wing Commander' unless the wg cdr is known in which case 'Dear Bob' but the subordinate should stick with 'Dear Sir.'
Civil servants writing 'Dear Flight Lieutenant Biggles' are probably senior and also often extracting the urine.
When writing to Air Marshals and vices, it is usual to use Air Marshal and similarly for Generals, Admirals, Colonels and Commanders. As for a 4* airman I am not sure. (The lesson was a very long time ago and I used 'Brian' and 'Bill' and 'Sir' for Michael <vbg> when I bump into them - yes, that Bill)
Agree, makes me cringe when introduced that way but that is what the old dears love.
There is, or used to be, a whole lesson on that subject.
'Dear Wing Commander Bloggs' pretentious from a subordinate, acceptable from a superior as is 'Dear Wing Commander' unless the wg cdr is known in which case 'Dear Bob' but the subordinate should stick with 'Dear Sir.'
Civil servants writing 'Dear Flight Lieutenant Biggles' are probably senior and also often extracting the urine.
When writing to Air Marshals and vices, it is usual to use Air Marshal and similarly for Generals, Admirals, Colonels and Commanders. As for a 4* airman I am not sure. (The lesson was a very long time ago and I used 'Brian' and 'Bill' and 'Sir' for Michael <vbg> when I bump into them - yes, that Bill)
Gentleman Aviator
cg
.. not the one I had in mind, but I never saw the White Tornado's chequebook!
phil gollin & Kitbag
.. generally accepted reason for surgeons being "Mr" rather than "Dr" is that for many years (centuries even) surgeons were very much second class citizens to physicians. Surgeons were often primarily barbers or phlebotomists (bloodletters) - hence incidentally the "barbers' pole", a representation of a bloodily bandaged arm!
Personally I prefer to keep "Dr" as an honorific for medical men .... "Dr" John Reid the Glaswegian thug with a PhD in underwater basket weaving grips my
!
Teeteringhead, not AFC H****r AFC?
phil gollin & Kitbag
.. generally accepted reason for surgeons being "Mr" rather than "Dr" is that for many years (centuries even) surgeons were very much second class citizens to physicians. Surgeons were often primarily barbers or phlebotomists (bloodletters) - hence incidentally the "barbers' pole", a representation of a bloodily bandaged arm!
Personally I prefer to keep "Dr" as an honorific for medical men .... "Dr" John Reid the Glaswegian thug with a PhD in underwater basket weaving grips my
!
phil gollin
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr
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This website gives the offical listings of address:
http://www.dca.gov.uk/dept/titles.htm
and Note RAF follows Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Army.
Royal Air Force officers
Ranks should be written in full.
All officers below the rank of Air Chief Marshal should have the suffix "RAF" written after their names and decorations.
When we consider retired ranks the following are extracts to illustrate the point:
Lieutenant Commander - Commander - By custom rank is used
Major - Major - Rank may be used
Wing Commander - Wing Commander - Rank may be used but should not use "RAF" after the name
Squadron Leader - Squadron Leader - As above
Below these ranks they are all plain Mr.
http://www.dca.gov.uk/dept/titles.htm
and Note RAF follows Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Army.
Royal Air Force officers
Ranks should be written in full.
All officers below the rank of Air Chief Marshal should have the suffix "RAF" written after their names and decorations.
When we consider retired ranks the following are extracts to illustrate the point:
Lieutenant Commander - Commander - By custom rank is used
Major - Major - Rank may be used
Wing Commander - Wing Commander - Rank may be used but should not use "RAF" after the name
Squadron Leader - Squadron Leader - As above
Below these ranks they are all plain Mr.
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Pontious N
It sayeth in the Bible, JSP101 Ch 2 Para 11;
"Personal Letters. The choice of salutation in a personal letter depends on the relative ranks or grades of the writer and addressee and how well they know each other. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you know well, use the recipient’s forename or ‘nickname’. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you do not know well, use the format ‘Dear Squadron Leader Bloggs’. This format is also recommended when writing to a superior, eg ‘Dear Colonel Franks’ or ‘Dear Mrs Smith’ (and use the generic rank for military officers; eg refer to the rank of air vice-marshal or rear admiral as ‘Air Marshal’ or ‘Admiral’ respectively). The valediction is a matter of personal choice but ‘Yours sincerely’ is safe and recommended".
It sayeth in the Bible, JSP101 Ch 2 Para 11;
"Personal Letters. The choice of salutation in a personal letter depends on the relative ranks or grades of the writer and addressee and how well they know each other. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you know well, use the recipient’s forename or ‘nickname’. If you are writing to an equal or junior that you do not know well, use the format ‘Dear Squadron Leader Bloggs’. This format is also recommended when writing to a superior, eg ‘Dear Colonel Franks’ or ‘Dear Mrs Smith’ (and use the generic rank for military officers; eg refer to the rank of air vice-marshal or rear admiral as ‘Air Marshal’ or ‘Admiral’ respectively). The valediction is a matter of personal choice but ‘Yours sincerely’ is safe and recommended".
Gentleman Aviator
Economic history in fact midsomerjambo, to be precise:
... whatever that means.. think I'd have preferred underwater basket-weaving...
...but seriously, I find him a bit more honest than most of our jockistani leaders. Glaswegian thug indeed, but WYSIWYG which is rare in politics.
I quite liked him when he was Min AF when I was in Whitehall ... and I admire someone who has done as well as he from poor beginings (neither "son-of-the-manse" nor Fettes-educated) - who left school at 16 and took his first degree with the OU.
..... but I still think that PhDs shouldn't be called "doctor" outside Academe
His thesis was on the 19th-century West African slave trade from a Marxist perspective
...but seriously, I find him a bit more honest than most of our jockistani leaders. Glaswegian thug indeed, but WYSIWYG which is rare in politics.
I quite liked him when he was Min AF when I was in Whitehall ... and I admire someone who has done as well as he from poor beginings (neither "son-of-the-manse" nor Fettes-educated) - who left school at 16 and took his first degree with the OU.
..... but I still think that PhDs shouldn't be called "doctor" outside Academe
Surely the most ludicrous title ever was:
"His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular."
"His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular."
Somewaht off track, but related to the idea of social etiquette in the Forces...
Some years ago, we found, in the RAF Halton archives, a delightful letter from an AVM at a now defunct HQ at Aston Clinton to the then Commandant of Halton (an Air Cdre). The letter was written soon after WW2 when rationing was still in, and was responding to a suggested menu for a forthcoming dinner. I remember 2 things from the letter:
Firstly, the very clipped salutation 'Dear...(surname)'
Secondly, the incredibly patronising tone which belitted the Air Cdre's choice of food. For instance, the choice of sauternes for the dessert wine was seen to be most inappropriate, and another suggestion was given. Also, the Cmdt was put in his place for daring to suggest cream to go with the dessert. Ice cream was deemed more suitable given the current political climate and the uproar that might have followed for using a scarce foodstuff.
Imagine the response these days to such pomposity!
Some years ago, we found, in the RAF Halton archives, a delightful letter from an AVM at a now defunct HQ at Aston Clinton to the then Commandant of Halton (an Air Cdre). The letter was written soon after WW2 when rationing was still in, and was responding to a suggested menu for a forthcoming dinner. I remember 2 things from the letter:
Firstly, the very clipped salutation 'Dear...(surname)'
Secondly, the incredibly patronising tone which belitted the Air Cdre's choice of food. For instance, the choice of sauternes for the dessert wine was seen to be most inappropriate, and another suggestion was given. Also, the Cmdt was put in his place for daring to suggest cream to go with the dessert. Ice cream was deemed more suitable given the current political climate and the uproar that might have followed for using a scarce foodstuff.
Imagine the response these days to such pomposity!
Cunning Artificer
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More interesting though, does Captain Speaking expect to be called Captain when in his local in Houndslow?
('Nigel' - A civilian aviation epithet for BA pilots)
Red On, Green On
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People with PhDs may be clever, but they are not always that bright - at a PTA meeting discussing the expansion of the school due to increasing nos. of kids, one mum of three, who liked to be called Dr. Bloggs, stood up and said "What I'd like to know, is where all the children are coming from" - cue much hilarity 
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Ah well TH, I have to be a wee bit careful here being a Jockistani myself (albeit from the capital city on the east coast). Incidentally, Mrs. MSJ has a PhD (in medical physics) but she tells me the only reason she did it was so she could push her way to the front of the bar, saying "Let me through, I'm a Doctor".
Gentleman Aviator
msj
If it gets Mrs (Dr) msj (and your goodself) a drink a bit quicker, I'm prepared to make an exception in her case!
If it gets Mrs (Dr) msj (and your goodself) a drink a bit quicker, I'm prepared to make an exception in her case!
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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Blacksheep: In fact they don't so much nowadays, and the few that still insist upon it are liable to have 'The Michael' extracted!
However, I did take a rather dim view of the young chap from Dispatch who arrived on the flight deck on one of my last flights and addressed me as 'Cock' ...
MR GALHI (Just don't call me 'Cock') Captain, Merchant Air Services (Retd.)
However, I did take a rather dim view of the young chap from Dispatch who arrived on the flight deck on one of my last flights and addressed me as 'Cock' ...
MR GALHI (Just don't call me 'Cock') Captain, Merchant Air Services (Retd.)
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This thread topic has been raised before, and the replies are therefore in similar vein.
I've always thought it was largely a Brit thing really. I can't recall a single instance of anyone down here doing it, and I know at least two former CDS who are in my local phone book by their usual initials and name, and one of them is a former CAS, CDS, and a Knight of the Realm, [before we dumped such titles].
I've always thought it was largely a Brit thing really. I can't recall a single instance of anyone down here doing it, and I know at least two former CDS who are in my local phone book by their usual initials and name, and one of them is a former CAS, CDS, and a Knight of the Realm, [before we dumped such titles].
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Quote :-
phil gollin
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr
unquote
Most UK medical doctors are "professionally" doctors - and hence use the title as a professional name, e.g. like saying someone is "plumber" smith or "electrician" Jones.
Relatively few have proper academic doctorates.
Another group which is peculiar are the police, where each and every policeman has a warrant, but their "job titles" are merely job titles.
It is all about trying to impress someone else - especially with the police who wouldn't want a member of the public to address them on frst name terms - just try matching name useage "one-to-one" with a policeman - always fun, it gets you back to the "Mr" stage really quickly.
phil gollin
All MDs are Doctors - because they have Doctorates - although these are not ever so common in the UK
Medical Practitioners in the UK usually have either MB BS or MB ChB degrees - Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery and use the honorary title of Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr
unquote
Most UK medical doctors are "professionally" doctors - and hence use the title as a professional name, e.g. like saying someone is "plumber" smith or "electrician" Jones.
Relatively few have proper academic doctorates.
Another group which is peculiar are the police, where each and every policeman has a warrant, but their "job titles" are merely job titles.
It is all about trying to impress someone else - especially with the police who wouldn't want a member of the public to address them on frst name terms - just try matching name useage "one-to-one" with a policeman - always fun, it gets you back to the "Mr" stage really quickly.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
[quote NRU74 said] Dr - it applies to Dentists now who are also authorised to call themselves Dr[/quote]
Mrs PN corrected me when I mentioned that Dentists could be called Dr.
Mere Batchelor of Dentistry may be, but as many are Dental Surgeons, like other surgeons they are a cut above mere doctors and are therefore Mr.
Mrs PN corrected me when I mentioned that Dentists could be called Dr.
Mere Batchelor of Dentistry may be, but as many are Dental Surgeons, like other surgeons they are a cut above mere doctors and are therefore Mr.