Red Arrows to be chopped? Again!

[VitaminGee]

Perhaps I'm being a tad cynical, but, with the future of the Reds up for discussion again, is it by accident that Red One was interviewed by Chris Evans on Radio 2 yesterday evening?

[Gainesy]

And the army still troop the Colour wearing red jackets, & the RHA gallop around on horses with their field guns.

And while we're at it, bring back the RN's Field Gun Race. On the Reds, its easy to become blase, but you should see the effect they have on foreign audiences. Gobsmacked is wholly appropriate.

[BellEndBob]

But sod all effect on the insurgents in the Middle East.

It is a question of priorities. The average Joe on the street will not be open to calls of overstretch/underfunding if we maintain an aerobatic team but do not support, adequately, the troops on the ground fighting on two fronts every day of every week.

[soddim]

Sensible plot, Swinging Monkey, but BBMF's home base is open for other reasons not just for them.

Please let's not suggest for a moment any change to BBMF or the bean counters will focus their cuts on them. Anyway, they have fighters that work so maybe we could put up an operational case to keep them!

[unfazed]

- I have seen both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds. Firstly, they are not a patch on the Arrows, and secondly - they are just too damned fast!

It can't be tha same Thunderbirds that I last saw, not only were they fast they were also very agile and their routine was fantastic

I would love to see the Reds fly something comparable rather than all the lovely graceful and rather boring routines that they do because the Hawk is not in the same league as the F16

My perception, controversial maybe

[The Swinging Monkey]

unfazed,
I didn't say they wern't fast or agile (I said they were too damned fast) but lets be honest, the gaps in between their passes etc are enormous - to the extent where boredom sets in waiting for them to come back! You don't have that with the Arrows. Also, perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what the Thunderbirds and the F-16 can do in a display that the Hawk can't (except do it a bit faster, thereby leaving us with huge gaps??)

Soddim, as for Coningsby being open for other reasons, yes I know that, but we all know that the last thing a Typhoon wants (when he gets scrambled) is a bumbling old Lanc, or Spit, of Dak or anything else comes to that, getting in it's way! I think that BBMF moving to Scampton along with the Vulcan would provide the ideal solution to several 'problem' areas.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Scampton should take on some kind of 'RAF Heritage' station, where the public could come and view the RAF's 3 most popular 'aircraft/teams' throughout the year. Can't wait!!

Kind regards to all
TSM

[threeputt]

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Scampton should take on some kind of 'RAF Heritage' station, where the public could come and view the RAF's 3 most popular 'aircraft/teams' throughout the year. Can't wait!!


Now that's a very good idea. CAS are you reading this because it makes a lot of sense

3P

[Exrigger]

Posted by TM Post #70
The rumours about Scampton still continuie. Although it appears to be established that the runway is now going to be resurfaced (and the Reds operate their Hawks from Waddington while this happens) there's now a rumour going round that the BBMF may relocate to Scampton too. Whether there's any truth to it I don't know but I suppose it would make sense, as they're going to need all the (air and ground) space they can get at Coningsby.
But then there's another rumour (which I first heard last year) that maybe even the newly-restored Vulcan might move to Scampton, as there are no (cheap) hangarage facilities at Bruntingthorpe.
Who would have thought it - a Lancaster and a Vulcan at Scampton

These are the rumours that I heard when I was at Bruntingthorpe as well, so maybe it will happen, as has been said it makes lots of sense for all sorts of reasons.

[unfazed]

the gaps in between their passes etc are enormous - to the extent where boredom sets in waiting for them to come back! You don't have that with the Arrows. Also, perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what the Thunderbirds and the F-16 can do in a display that the Hawk can't (except do it a bit faster, thereby leaving us with huge gaps??)

The Swinging Monkey

Having a fast jet like the F16 gives more speed but also a much more dynamic display. The routine that I saw the Thunderbirds do was a fantastic display that was very close formation and demonstrated the remarkable capability of the F16 to truly dominate the airspace, fast climb, tight turns, very fast and covering a lot of airspace in a short amount of time

The Hawk by comparison is slower and the poor old Reds have to adapt the display to fit what is a less capable aircraft. This leads to a very flowing and lovely display but I can't help wondering what our lads would do if they got their hands on a Typhoon.

Horses for courses ! Unfortunately we can't compare like for like and I personally prefer to see real heavy metal air displays.

[RileyDove]

Swinging Monkey - If you look back few months you will find a post from me regards Scampton and siting the BBMF at possibly the world's most famous bomber airfield! Maybe it wouled make too much sense but surely grabbing some heritage money to rejuvenate the wartime buildings and maybe even set dressing the non operational areas with some period vehicles ala WW II bomber station could attract afew visitors coupled with the massive attraction of Lincoln just up the road . It could also be argued that there would be mileage in a Reds Arrows vistor centre with some interactive exhibits and a worn out Hawk fro the kids to jump in !

[Raymond Ginardon]

Quote "The Hawk by comparison is slower and the poor old Reds have to adapt the display to fit what is a less capable aircraft. This leads to a very flowing and lovely display but I can't help wondering what our lads would do if they got their hands on a Typhoon." Quote
.
It's the fact that is IS a Hawk that impresses me - they are doing great stuff with less than great kit. F16 and 18 are FBW machines with lots of fast responding thrunge, the 18 is also a drag monster (16 not so much) and exquisitely easy to fly in formation.
.
Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.
.
Ray :-)

[BIG MACH]

I read that the Reds cost GBP6.5 million per year to the taxpayer. This so-called government is spending GBP7 million to teach civil servants how to tidy their desks. If we ask the taxpayer where they would rather spend the money, I have no doubt as to the answer. The civil servants are running riot with the cash and MOD, not to mention skools 'n hospitals, are being treated like Oliver (Charles Dickens, mate). The words 'inmates' and 'asylums' comes to mind.

[WorkingHard]

Can any one give a break down of the total RAF budget? If we knew the cost of pay, pensions, accomodation, equipment, personnel numbers and number of aircraft, a better judgement may be made about the cost of the Reds and hence should they be retained. It has been said many times above, the Red Arrows are one of the UK's greatest foreign ambassadors, even if some of the personnel are criticised.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Originally Posted by BellEndBob

But sod all effect on the insurgents in the Middle East.

It is a question of priorities. The average Joe on the street will not be open to calls of overstretch/underfunding if we maintain an aerobatic team but do not support, adequately, the troops on the ground fighting on two fronts every day of every week.

So we have not got enough CAS (or indeed any worth the name) helicopters and transports. And I am sure that scrubbing the Reds would do nothing to remedy that situation. The average "Joe on the Street", whilst sympathetic to the Army's plight, is unconvinced of the need to fight on either front, let alone both. He might be more easily impressed by "overstretch" if there were not thousands of soldiers still deployed in areas where there is no conceivable threat (eg Germany). He might even wish that these soldiers were available to help sort out a major national emergency at home (terrorist outrage, flu pandemic - you name it). He hears on the radio that there is a real shortage of diamorphine in the NHS; and yet there we are in Aghanistan doing our best eliminate the main source of it. I do not believe that the public will ever again support a foreign intervention unless there is a real, immediate and demonstrable threat to the homeland or a vital national interest overseas.

To be cynical, the most sure ploy to guarrantee the Reds' survival would be to appoint a girl as Red 1 and, ideally, another as one of the soloists. Give them plenty of publicity and no government would dare to cut them. They would have the whole feminist pack baying for their blood.

[WorkingHard]

FV your last paragraph certainly has merit and ought to be very seriously considered but would the remaining Reds take kindly to a female leader?

[unfazed]

Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.

Come on lets be honest if you were in the Reds and the choice was Hawk or Typhoon or even F16 what would you want to fly ?

As for females why not ? it's already a reality for some

[Raymond Ginardon]

Originally Posted by unfazed

Your average 'airshow Joe' is also likely to be more impressed with the F's because they look nicer and make more noise.
Come on lets be honest if you were in the Reds and the choice was Hawk or Typhoon or even F16 what would you want to fly ?

I think we are in raging agreement there :-) F16 and Typhoon are way more enjoyable to fly, in almost all respects, than Hawk. I was just saying that I was impressed with what they (Reds) do with what they have.

[RileyDove]

If it costs 6.5 million for the Reds and 7 million to train civil servants to tidy their desks could they not get the Reds to teach them how to tidy their desks instead on their days off and give the remaining 500K to the bar fund?

[The Swinging Monkey]

unfazed,
I think we will just have to disagree.
Yes, the T'birds are good as are the Blue Angels, and yes it is good to see some bigger hardware in formation, but I cannot agree that they are 'better' in any way whatsoever, and I still standby my comments regarding large periods of inactivity during displays by our American bretherin, sorry.

As for Scampton, long may it continue to be put to its primary use of flying aircraft. We have lost far too many of our airfields to the developers of this world who use them for storing cars and other bits of rubbish on, but thats another thread.

Kind regards to all
TSM

[Flatus Veteranus]

Originally Posted by The Swinging Monkey

unfazed,
I think we will just have to disagree.
Yes, the T'birds are good as are the Blue Angels, and yes it is good to see some bigger hardware in formation, but I cannot agree that they are 'better' in any way whatsoever, and I still standby my comments regarding large periods of inactivity during displays by our American bretherin, sorry.
As for Scampton, long may it continue to be put to its primary use of flying aircraft. We have lost far too many of our airfields to the developers of this world who use them for storing cars and other bits of rubbish on, but thats another thread.
Kind regards to all
TSM

I agree. The TBirds and the Angels fly fast and tight - but not very often. I have seen kids (self included) get bored waiting for their next appearance. The Reds and the Patrouille are rarely out of sight owing to their lower radius of turn, and are always doing something interesting. Higher performance and heavier aircraft would detract from the Reds' show, as well as being more expensive - in my (not very) humble view. Actually, setting aside patriotic fervour, as a former member of the cfs Sparrows team flying Piston Provosts, I get most kick out of the Jordanians in their light aircraft, doing something very close to a precision slow roll. The transfer from positive to negative g is seamless. Brilliant. Hats off!