Red Arrows to be chopped? Again!
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"One looming fact is that the T1As are old and have limited shelf life, they are not going to be replaced on a one for one basis by Hawk 128s so something has to give."
Are the Germans still flogging off Alpha-Jets on the cheap?
Are the Germans still flogging off Alpha-Jets on the cheap?
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Future of Red Arrows under review
Sunday January 21, 06:59 PM
The future of the RAF's Red Arrows display team is being considered as part of a review of military spending, the Ministry of Defence confirmed.
But it insisted no decisions had been taken and pointed out that that the famous aerobatics team's budget was set to increase next year.
Opposition MPs told the Sunday Express that axing the squadron would mean the loss of a great "ambassador" for the UK abroad.
Tory MP Gerald Howarth said: "The value of that far exceeds their funding. It is inconceivable that they should be axed."
And Liberal Democrat spokesman Nick Harvey said the Red Arrows "are a public display of Britain's military pride and skill".
"Were they to be axed, we would lose one of the great ambassadors and showcases for our country."
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The costs of all MoD activities are examined on a regular basis.
"A range of proposals are being considered. Decisions will be made some time this year."
He pointed out that the Arrows' budget was scheduled to rise from £5.2 million to £5.6 million next year and their future location was also being considered.
"That does not suggest to me that they are on their last legs," he said.
The future of the RAF's Red Arrows display team is being considered as part of a review of military spending, the Ministry of Defence confirmed.
But it insisted no decisions had been taken and pointed out that that the famous aerobatics team's budget was set to increase next year.
Opposition MPs told the Sunday Express that axing the squadron would mean the loss of a great "ambassador" for the UK abroad.
Tory MP Gerald Howarth said: "The value of that far exceeds their funding. It is inconceivable that they should be axed."
And Liberal Democrat spokesman Nick Harvey said the Red Arrows "are a public display of Britain's military pride and skill".
"Were they to be axed, we would lose one of the great ambassadors and showcases for our country."
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The costs of all MoD activities are examined on a regular basis.
"A range of proposals are being considered. Decisions will be made some time this year."
He pointed out that the Arrows' budget was scheduled to rise from £5.2 million to £5.6 million next year and their future location was also being considered.
"That does not suggest to me that they are on their last legs," he said.
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Personally, I don't give any credence to these reports; I don't think any government would seriously consider this; it would be too much of a gift to the opposition. It's kind of a national morale issue.
I never even knew the cost and frankly, for £5-6m, it's very good value.
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5844406
I never even knew the cost and frankly, for £5-6m, it's very good value.
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5844406
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You're right, having on outsize ego is not a qualification for the job, but it does seem to be a result of spending time on the team.
With the massive shrinkage that the RAF has undergone over the last 10 years, why do we need the Reds to advertise for people to join up.
If little Johnny wants to fly fast jets/Helos/AT then he will want to do that even without seing the Reds.
As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF. If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.
Close Scampton as well, save money, just let the place go to ruin. (oh I forgot, it already has).
If little Johnny wants to fly fast jets/Helos/AT then he will want to do that even without seing the Reds.
As an aside, apart from advertising BAE Systems aircraft, and providing BAE Syatems jobs to build Hawks for little countries airforces, what do the Reds do for the RAF. If they are mainly to advertise for BAES, then BAES should fund them 100%, otherwise, the £5.6m should be better spent elsewhere, and in direct support of the front line personnel.
Close Scampton as well, save money, just let the place go to ruin. (oh I forgot, it already has).
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The same accusation gets levelled at the Reds groundcrews; I've known loads of them and they are no such thing IMHO they are just a bunch of guys doing their job. They do what is asked of them to sell the image around the world thats all. But, it seems that they are all on to a loser and it doesn't matter how they behave someone will sneer at them and label them egotistical, its almost de-rigueur to do so.
Odd isn't it? We champion lifes halfwits, the Jade Goodys of the world and yet deride those who are genuinely the best in their field. Unless of course they are multi-million pound footballers, or genuine egomaniacs from Stoke-on-Trent in which case them beome national heroes
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I also recall the same crusading Express bannering the headline 'Red Arrows to be Axed!' when I was working on my book about them one Sunday in 2004 at Kemble. Reporters were hopping around the hospitality marquee trying to tap (or was that trap?) a comment from Red 1 (then, Sqn Ldr Spike Jepson) who fielded the questions with great aplomb. As you'd expect.
Of course, the very next weekend, it was the Express once again who bellowed, 'We Saved the Red Arrows!', claiming the readers themselves had changed the minds of money men by sending in thousands of protesting views. Newspapers love kicking around these stories to show their readership they're making a difference; it's what sells papers and we always seem to fall for it. That's not to say a civil servant - or a politician - on the climb up the Whitehall ladder hasn't at one time, tried to meddle with RAFAT.
I think you'll find the team take it in their stride, treating all these mischievous stories as 'all good PR'.
Of course, the very next weekend, it was the Express once again who bellowed, 'We Saved the Red Arrows!', claiming the readers themselves had changed the minds of money men by sending in thousands of protesting views. Newspapers love kicking around these stories to show their readership they're making a difference; it's what sells papers and we always seem to fall for it. That's not to say a civil servant - or a politician - on the climb up the Whitehall ladder hasn't at one time, tried to meddle with RAFAT.
I think you'll find the team take it in their stride, treating all these mischievous stories as 'all good PR'.
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Ken Scott
You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.
Are you related to Jade G by any chance?
You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.
Are you related to Jade G by any chance?
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Ken Scott
You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.
Are you related to Jade G by any chance?
You are ignorent and offensive. A more professional, balanced, pleasant and unegotistical bunch of young men, despite their being in such a high profile public environment, you could not hope to meet than the current Reds.
Are you related to Jade G by any chance?
It's not jealousy on my part, and I do acknowledge that I couldn't do their job even if I wanted to. But my opinion is not ignorant, I have had professional dealings with a number of them, so I have had longer to form my opinion than the time it takes to beg for an autograph at an airshow.
Besides, in my original post I supported the Reds & was opposed to their disbandment. I think they do a good job & the RAF would be poorer place without them. But I retain the right to have an opinion of them as people, based on knowing quite a number of them.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Folks, this debate is not about personalties, although I did use the term "ego trip" in an earlier post which I know regret. If you are considered an elite, then of course you behave like one, its a natural thing to do. The analogy I would give is Formula 1 racing drivers, some of which I have met.
Getting back to the original question.... can we afford to maintain a dedicated aerobatic display team when their kit times out in three years time, when the rest of the services are having to sell the family silver? I say no, reluctantly. An alternative has to be found and I stick to my posts above.
At a commercial level, if the Reds flew Typhoons made up from a selection of aircraft ftom front line Squadrons I suspect they would get more commercial sponsorship, not less
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Getting back to the original question.... can we afford to maintain a dedicated aerobatic display team when their kit times out in three years time, when the rest of the services are having to sell the family silver? I say no, reluctantly. An alternative has to be found and I stick to my posts above.
At a commercial level, if the Reds flew Typhoons made up from a selection of aircraft ftom front line Squadrons I suspect they would get more commercial sponsorship, not less
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Last edited by Navaleye; 22nd Jan 2007 at 00:29.
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[QUOTE=Navaleye;3082234] can we afford to maintain a dedicated aerobatic display team when their kit times out in three years time, when the rest of the services are having to sell the family silver? QUOTE]
Short answer is that we obviously can, of course.
It's more a question of whether we (or to be more precise, the Treasury) wants to. Clearly, dumping the Reds wouldn't release so much as a penny for use elsewhere, but we're supposed to imagine that it would.
It's a pity that out beloved tabloids can't divert their attention from the afore-mentioned Jade Goody, and instead of telling every half-wit in the country what to think about her (because it seems, most of the population is incapable of forming a judgement without having one forced upon them), maybe they could start asking us to consider why it is that when our armed forces are tasked with the defence of the United Kingdom, their ability to undertake this task is being crippled by bizarre political crusades overseas that will ultimately save not so much as one British life, but actually result in the loss of many.
Surely, somebody ought to be asking how we've reached a stage where we're having to seriously look at chopping the Red Arrows in order to balance defence budgets, while the armed forces are up to their necks fighting wars in other people's countries. It's complete madness.
Short answer is that we obviously can, of course.
It's more a question of whether we (or to be more precise, the Treasury) wants to. Clearly, dumping the Reds wouldn't release so much as a penny for use elsewhere, but we're supposed to imagine that it would.
It's a pity that out beloved tabloids can't divert their attention from the afore-mentioned Jade Goody, and instead of telling every half-wit in the country what to think about her (because it seems, most of the population is incapable of forming a judgement without having one forced upon them), maybe they could start asking us to consider why it is that when our armed forces are tasked with the defence of the United Kingdom, their ability to undertake this task is being crippled by bizarre political crusades overseas that will ultimately save not so much as one British life, but actually result in the loss of many.
Surely, somebody ought to be asking how we've reached a stage where we're having to seriously look at chopping the Red Arrows in order to balance defence budgets, while the armed forces are up to their necks fighting wars in other people's countries. It's complete madness.
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New'ish Hawks for sale...
Knowing that some very senior RAF officers read this thread:
Rumour control: The Hawk 115's at NFTC might be up for sale in about 3-4 years......
They would make a cheap replacement for the T1's and not dig in to the 128 pile, and there's 9+a few spares of them 'allegedly' available.
Snag is that The Snowbirds may be about to buy them (more rumours)
to replace their old steeds.
Rumour control: The Hawk 115's at NFTC might be up for sale in about 3-4 years......
They would make a cheap replacement for the T1's and not dig in to the 128 pile, and there's 9+a few spares of them 'allegedly' available.
Snag is that The Snowbirds may be about to buy them (more rumours)
to replace their old steeds.