Vulcan B2A - Olympus 301 or Blue Steel

[Jackonicko]

OK, I'm confused. Different sources say different things. Was the B.Mk 2A designation applied to Blue Steel aircraft or two those with Olympus 301s, or was it unofficial anyway?

[forget]

From this - http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/types/uk...can/Vulcan.htm

Only 57 Blue Steels were produced, and Vulcans equipped to carry it were designated B. Mk 2A.

Now to find something that contradicts it.

[Jackonicko]

"Now to find something that contradicts it."

http://www.vectorsite.net/avvulcan_2.html

"Some sources claim that Vulcan B.2s that were modified to carry Blue Steel were given the designation of "Vulcan B.2A", but others say that it was the Olympus 301-powered machines that had this designation, and still others say the "B.2A" designation is a fiction."

Many of the books and magazines also give the B2A designation for the 301 engined aircraft.

[ZH875]

Page 125 of Andrew Brookes 'V Force' states that 'when modified [for Blue Steel] these airframes, which were all 200-series engined aircraft, were known as Vulcan B2As.

[Lyneham Lad]

Originally Posted by ZH875

Page 125 of Andrew Brookes 'V Force' states that 'when modified [for Blue Steel] these airframes, which were all 200-series engined aircraft, were known as Vulcan B2As.

Perhaps when built but they did not stay that way. I was a young 'Linie' at Scampton in 1965 and definitely recall that some of the Blue Steel Vulcans had 301 engines.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Wasn't it just a case of early Blue Steel modifications being carried out on latter 200 series Vulcans and the latter modifications being carried out on Vulcans fitted with 301's?

[My Dad's Little Boy]

Now I'm going to contradict everyone here (as is my wont) . My understanding is that only the late production Vulcan B.2s that were fitted during their production with wing hardpoints for the cancelled Skybolt were designated Vulcan B.2A. These hardpoints were only resurrected to carry Shrike missiles for the Falklands War.

As far as I know (and I do stand to be corrected here), eventually most of, if not all Mark 2 Vulcans were retro-fitted with the Olympus 301 and most, if not all could carry Blue Steel.

MDLB

[Tim McLelland]

There was no such designation as the B2A. I know this because I took the trouble to find-out! No Vulcans were retrofitted with the 301 - they remained as they emerged from the factory, either with 201's or 301's. Some 301-engined aircraft were indeed Blue Steel-capable but the vast majority of the suitably-modified aircraft were 201-series machines. Hope this helps.
Tim
(Author of The Vulcan Story and V-Bombers)

[forget]

.........they remained as they emerged from the factory, either with 201's or 301's

Hmmmmmm.

[Tim McLelland]

...unless you know something that I and British Aerospace don't?

Actually I just checked my own records and there were more 301-series aircraft with Blue Steel mods than I remembered. I case anyone cares to know, they were:-

XL384, 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390, 391.
XM574, 575, 576, 594, 595, 597


Tim

[forget]

Relax Tim - no need to stop the presses. From http://www.thevulcancollection.co.uk/xh537skybolt.htm

One external indication of 537s Mk1 inheritance was its narrow air intakes. These were suitable for the mass-flow of the Olympus 201 engines but were considered too small for the 301 development and B2 aircraft from XH557 onwards had wider intakes anticipating the larger engines. A plan to enlarge the intakes and retrofit Olympus 301 engines was rejected on cost.

However, I seem to remember that 'some' of the new aircraft first delivered to Coningsby (1960'ish) were rotated through an engine upgrade 201's to 301's.

Brain's going here - but is it possible that, due to a shortage of 301s, some 301 capable aircraft were delivered with 201's as a stop gap?

[Tim McLelland]

Well as far as any records go, there's no evidence to suggest that any of the B2 fleet was re-engined in such a manner. The documentation I gleaned from Woodford many years ago stated the engine fit when they were delivered and there are no records (at least none that I've ever found) that suggest that any aircraft were subsequently changed.

Incidentally, you can see the afore-mentioned intake differences on a photograph on page 87 of my old Vulcan Story book if you have it

[flipflopman RB199]

My Dad's Little Boy,

Sorry old chap, but you're wrong on all counts there. As Tim states, there was never any official designation of B2A. All Vulcan B2's were just that, with the only differing designations being the B2MRR and K2 Tankers. This is borne out by every piece of official literature I have seen referring only to 'Vulcan B2' or 'Vulcan B2 Blue Steel'

The Blue Steels modifications were extensive, involving major Spar modifications required to recess the missile into the bomb bay. Therefore, only those airframes modified to carry Blue Steel could carry Blue Steel.

Tim,

Regarding the Retro-fitment of 301's, XH557 was initially delivered with 201's but was then used by Bristol Siddeley for engine trials, having first 2 x 301's in the No 1 and 4 position, later being fitted with 4 x 301's.


Flipflopman

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't recall any shortage of 301 series engines, certainly in the late delieveries at Coningsby. We used unrestricted power and we knew the difference.

We were the wing earmarked for the Far East deployment solely because we had the bigger, more powerful, engines. Later, when Waddington took over the role all the jets were swapped over too.

In Cyprus we made do with the 201 engines.

The 301 had a larger diameter and a short tail cone. This was a great benefit as the jet pipe could be slide out to get at the fire tec boxes. The smaller 201 series required the tail cone to be removed first.

[Jackonicko]

Now I might not know about designations, but I do know that:

Vulcan B.Mk 2 BS
A mini-fleet of 26 B.Mk 2s equipped to carry the Blue Steel missile equipped the Scampton Wing (that's 24 plus two spares). Blue Steel required modifications to the Vulcan’s spars, with the forward bomb bay spar having a crank in it, and the rear spar a cut-out. Bomb bay doors were removed and replaced by a fairing, and an extra ‘saddle’ fuel tank was installed in the bomb bay above Blue Steel’s forward section. A trials aircraft (XH539) was followed by 26 production ‘B.Mk 2 BS’ Vulcans. These were XL317-321, XL359-361, XL392, XL425-427, XL443-446, XM569-576, and XM594-595

Seven further conversions were made to cover a major modification programme on the Blue Steel Fleet, which left Scampton 'short'. These were XL384-390.

The seven 'extras' left Scampton with an embarrassment of jets after the mod programme had finished, and seven jets (XL445, 446, XM569-573) surplus to requirements were converted back to the freefall role in 1966.

Following the withdrawal of Blue Steel, all surviving aircraft were converted back to standard freefall bomber configuration.

Interestingly, these seven extra Blue Steel conversions were the only aircraft delivered with 201s that were officially converted to have 301s - this mod being undertaken at the same time as the Blue Steel mod, when the aircraft were stripped down to their undies anyway.

I make the 301 situation as follows:

Almost all Vulcan B.Mk 2s (from the eleventh aircraft, XH557, onwards) were built with larger engine intakes, in anticipation of the greater mass flow demanded by the 20,000-lb st Olympus 301 engine, though most were actually fitted with the 17,000-lb st Olympus 201. The 301 also required major structural alterations to the engine bays, making re-engining a complex and difficult process, requiring a full return to works. 36 aircraft were built with Olympus 301s, and seven more received them during conversion to B.Mk 2BS.

Trial Installation: XH557
Proof Installation: XJ784
Fitted on the production line during build: XL391, XM574-XM657
Retrofitted: XL384-390

When it comes to Skybolt, things are less clear.

XH537, XH538, and XH563 were trials aircraft ('563 for electrical compatability, so perhaps not fitted with pylons, etc?).

XM597-612 were built with the required hardpoints and wiring for Skybolt (16 jets) as was XL391 (the first Olympus 301 aircraft, held back on the line as a result).

But there were supposed to be 18 fully fitted Skybolt aircraft, and various sources list the following as having full Skybolt mods (front and rear attachments, etc.)

XL390, XH555 and XM574.

To further muddy the waters, most XH- and all surviving XJ- serialled B.Mk 2s were subsequently retrofitted with Skybolt front attachment points (not rear) in 1964-65, though this was after the (1962) cancellation of Skybolt.

And while the B2A designation may have been unofficial it was clearly used, but for which - Olympus 301 jets or Blue Steel? Does anyone have a B2A in their logbook under 'type'?

[Jackonicko]

ZH875,
On a previous thread you posted a picture of XH558 with the maritime type fit, in full 50 Squadron colours. Do you have the original? Was this before or after conversion to K2 standards? Did some of the K2s have this capability?

When 50 had its K2s, did it also have three or four 'straight' B2s? Standard B.Mk 2s used by 50 are known to have included XL426, and XM597, but how about XM652 and XM655?

[Pontius Navigator]

Jackonicko,

Further to your bomb bay tank fit, the BS ac could carry two extra saddle tanks. These were the A-tank (front) and E-tank (aft) IIRC th ecapacity of the A-tank was 5600lb with the E-tank being very similar. Both tanks were contoured to accommodate the BS indented bomb bay.

Later, I can't recall the date but between 1966-1968, Avro made the Drum tank. A drum tank held 8000lb of fuel. The bomb-bay could accept a fore and aft drum and the WE177 in the middle. This gave the aircraft possibly a further 300 miles range for the strike mission.

It could also have carried 7x1000 lb HE as an alternative. With one drum it could have carried 14x1000 lb.

[Tim McLelland]

As far as I'm aware, all of this information is covered in the listings which I first wrote in my book something like a dozen years ago or more. I haven't seen any reliable information to contradict any of it, so I'd be inclined to stick with that info. The larger intake was standard after XH557, indeed, pretty-much everything seems to have proceeded as standard after that particular aircraft, the only differences being the engine (201 and 301) and whether mods were for Blue Steel or Skybolt, etc., as described.

As for the "Vulcan B2 BS" designation, it's another unofficial one which gets thrown-up in books and articles, but having specifically checked this subject with Woodford many, many years ago, they assured me that the only official design/service designations were the B2, the K2 and the B2(MRR).
Re- XH558, the aircraft was of course operated by 27 Sqn as a B2(MRR) for some years, prior to being converted into a tanker. However, when it re-appeared as a tanker (and subsequently acquired 50 Squadron's markings at Waddington) it occasionally ventured-out with sniffer pods attached (as did XH560), so the aircraft was evidently still used for this role until the VC10 took over.

Yes, 50 Sqn did retain some "straight" B2's, XM652 and 655 were the last Vulcans to leave Scampton. XL426 was the most well-known one of course, as it continued flying on the display circuit until it was sold and went to Southend. XH560 was retained to become the official post-50 Squadron display aircraft and XH558 was scheduled to go to Marham to be dumped, but a last-minute look at the books revealed that there were fewer hours on 558, so XH560 eventually flew to Marham and was eventually destroyed on-site, leaving XH558 to soldier-on until she too was sold to David Walton. I have a feeling that XH560 actually only flew one public display (at Coningsby) shortly before retirement?

[brickhistory]

So, TM, we're to take it that you wrote a book?

[Tim McLelland]

Originally Posted by brickhistory

So, TM, we're to take it that you wrote a book?