Preparing The Country For The Disbandment Of The Raf?
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Could the RAF publicity machine and its spinning be part of the problem now? with spin having become more and more discredited and the other 2 armed services and other rescue services getting spun out by the RAF media machine has the press become more cynical and the other services more agresive in down playing the RAF role?
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I'm just starting my career in the RAF and I am beginning to think i've made the biggest mistake since Diana said to Dodi "lets take the car." I may just shaft the RAF before they shaft me - get as many hours as possible and jump ship. A good deal of my mates going through training feel the same way. Is anyone happy out there?
If you're happy and you know it click reply.
If you're happy and you know it click reply.
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TD21,
It's unsurprising that you have a (light hearted) cynical touch but try not to get too dragged down by some of the old buggers who populate Prune with their frustration venting comments.
There are lots and lots of Army, Navy and Air Force and Marine aircrew (plus any other servicemen/women) who are out and about here in the sand doing exactly what they joined up for. They might not like being away at Christmas; they might not like being away from home for months on end; they might be very opinionated about an MP or an Admiral but most quite like doing the job.
Some will leave because they have had enough of being away, some will leave because they feel passion for a service that's being eroded and so on, with a bunch of other reasons you'll find scattered throughout the threads.
But you are in flying training. You are at the beginning and have no baseline to suggest that the best thing to do is shaft an armed service that you as yet have no real experience of. Other than the posts of some (note some, not all) of the most seasoned, bitter, twisted and negative military people .(Most ex-military I hope.)
Enjoy yourself, get drunk, go on det, fly. Let the old knackers worry about the state of their service as though they individually are the most hard done by.
Although I'm sure that you, without even a set of wings on your chest yet, were joking about shafting the RAF and jumping ship? That would be a bit silly, wasting an opportunity that so many others will never have.
Lots of people are happy flying aircraft in any of the 4 services (note the 4th for Royal) don't worry too much about the paranoid Prune posters.
It's unsurprising that you have a (light hearted) cynical touch but try not to get too dragged down by some of the old buggers who populate Prune with their frustration venting comments.
There are lots and lots of Army, Navy and Air Force and Marine aircrew (plus any other servicemen/women) who are out and about here in the sand doing exactly what they joined up for. They might not like being away at Christmas; they might not like being away from home for months on end; they might be very opinionated about an MP or an Admiral but most quite like doing the job.
Some will leave because they have had enough of being away, some will leave because they feel passion for a service that's being eroded and so on, with a bunch of other reasons you'll find scattered throughout the threads.
But you are in flying training. You are at the beginning and have no baseline to suggest that the best thing to do is shaft an armed service that you as yet have no real experience of. Other than the posts of some (note some, not all) of the most seasoned, bitter, twisted and negative military people .(Most ex-military I hope.)
Enjoy yourself, get drunk, go on det, fly. Let the old knackers worry about the state of their service as though they individually are the most hard done by.
Although I'm sure that you, without even a set of wings on your chest yet, were joking about shafting the RAF and jumping ship? That would be a bit silly, wasting an opportunity that so many others will never have.
Lots of people are happy flying aircraft in any of the 4 services (note the 4th for Royal) don't worry too much about the paranoid Prune posters.
As to the rest of your post, I think SS has done a pretty sound job of rebuttal. It is just such spin that we have all got to get out of the habit of using! Mr Browne, etc, can play one or two off against the other(s) and we fall for it every time. When everyone had some measure of fat to fall back on, winning out at the cost of others meant little real harm was done. With things parred beyond the bone now, it means the difference between life and death, as we have all too regrettably seen. We need to agree, before it is done for us, that if it aint bust don't fix it, so keep the separate services particular to their own indigenous elements of Land, Sea and Air, with the peculiar variations that have proved their worth over the years (RM, FAA, AAC, etc). But after that is conceded co-operate and agree to organise, operate and order for maximum cost effectiveness. And "Keep it Simple, Stupid!", for it seems to me that the spiralling costs stem as often as not from cleverness, gold plating projects that would have been cheaper, quicker, and often better, if bought off the shelf instead of the complex and mysterious programmes so beloved of our Staffs, both service and civilian. And the most contentious point of all, the British Armed Forces are not there to ensure the continued existence of British companies who would otherwise go bust producing over priced and uncompetitive tat. We need access to the best deals in the market, no matter who produces it, providing of course that support and supplies are not at risk in time of conflict. That process needs to be transparent. It is anything but, now.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 31st Dec 2006 at 15:14.
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SS,
I think you are forgetting all the VGS's etc.
Chug,
I think we remain in violent agreement. But it is CAS and his accolytes who are plying the "light blue or bust" mantra who are so poisonous to harmonious output by the 3 Services.
I think you are forgetting all the VGS's etc.
Chug,
I think we remain in violent agreement. But it is CAS and his accolytes who are plying the "light blue or bust" mantra who are so poisonous to harmonious output by the 3 Services.
Bismark, could you please spell out what exactly the CAS and his acolytes are plying? From where I am (which is admittedly way off centre) I have been blissfully unaware of anything much he has done, is doing, or is likely to do for the light blue. If you mean his single minded obsession with Typhoon, that is as much at the cost of everything else in the RAF as of the other services. Pity they didn't name it the Albatross, far more appropriate! Meanwhile his AT crews carry on lacking protection that others have enjoyed for some 40 years, and half the Chinook force is on bricks gathering dust locked in a hangar. But the FJ guys are over the moon that one of theirs is in charge. God help us!
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VGSs belong to the RAFVR or the Air Training Corps or some such.
Anyway the two I know personally fly out of Dalton Barracks (guess who owns Abingdon these days) and RNAS Predannack. That'll be another one each for the FAA and AAC!
I missed
Northolt.
Mona.
I think I may have missed
Glasgow airport (UGSAS UAS??)
Belfast City Airport (Queens UAS??)
Or am I behind the times with those two?
PS
TD21
Yes we may be old and cynical about it.
Remember:
It is every Serviceman's God-given right to moan about his lot. As a commander, the day to start worrying is when the troops stop moaning.
There is no other way on earth that you can have the opportunity to commit the adrenaline-charged legalised mayhem that is flying a fast jet at low level. You cannot buy the privelige, you can only offer your heart and soul to Aunty Betty in exchange for the chance.
There is nothing in this life (other I guess than your own children - I wouldn't know) that comes close to the satisfaction in the words "Target Sighted" when you have spent hours ploughing up and down a dark and lumpy chunk of ocean and you go on to pull a fellow being alive from the sea.
If you think you're tough, how about going into a hostile country's defended airspace with no effective weapons, no escort and no plan B? Because if the Infantry are going to get the support they need you have to.
The Army want to be in a particular location. They don't really care that you are short on field length, power, fuel and a load of other stuff I don't know about. It's going to need all your skill but you do it because you are one of the best and you do the job right even if you break the aircraft in the process.
The Royal Air Force was the first and is still, pound for pound, the best. We just need a Sh1tload more pounds. That's politics, you have a vote, use it.
Sven
Anyway the two I know personally fly out of Dalton Barracks (guess who owns Abingdon these days) and RNAS Predannack. That'll be another one each for the FAA and AAC!
I missed
Northolt.
Mona.
I think I may have missed
Glasgow airport (UGSAS UAS??)
Belfast City Airport (Queens UAS??)
Or am I behind the times with those two?
PS
TD21
Yes we may be old and cynical about it.
Remember:
It is every Serviceman's God-given right to moan about his lot. As a commander, the day to start worrying is when the troops stop moaning.
There is no other way on earth that you can have the opportunity to commit the adrenaline-charged legalised mayhem that is flying a fast jet at low level. You cannot buy the privelige, you can only offer your heart and soul to Aunty Betty in exchange for the chance.
There is nothing in this life (other I guess than your own children - I wouldn't know) that comes close to the satisfaction in the words "Target Sighted" when you have spent hours ploughing up and down a dark and lumpy chunk of ocean and you go on to pull a fellow being alive from the sea.
If you think you're tough, how about going into a hostile country's defended airspace with no effective weapons, no escort and no plan B? Because if the Infantry are going to get the support they need you have to.
The Army want to be in a particular location. They don't really care that you are short on field length, power, fuel and a load of other stuff I don't know about. It's going to need all your skill but you do it because you are one of the best and you do the job right even if you break the aircraft in the process.
The Royal Air Force was the first and is still, pound for pound, the best. We just need a Sh1tload more pounds. That's politics, you have a vote, use it.
Sven
Last edited by Sven Sixtoo; 31st Dec 2006 at 19:56.
I'm just starting my career in the RAF and I am beginning to think i've made the biggest mistake since Diana said to Dodi "lets take the car." I may just shaft the RAF before they shaft me - get as many hours as possible and jump ship. A good deal of my mates going through training feel the same way. Is anyone happy out there?
If you're happy and you know it click reply.
If you're happy and you know it click reply.
To even suggest at this stage that you and your chums are seriously discussing whether to "shaft the RAF before they shaft me" is completely unacceptable. How on earth were you ever selected in the first place? I do not know if you are an airman or an officer, on ground or flight training. It doesn't matter, my comments apply equally, though if you have a commission and are training as aircrew (pilot?), which posting on this forum would imply, then my advice would be to change your attitude PDQ, for you will be unable to function in your primary role as is! That is, of course, as an RAF officer, to lead and inspire others. Is that you would you say?
The discussions and arguments on this forum are either light hearted banter, which you will already know more about than I, or serious attempts to address problems caused primarily by continuous cuts in the Defence Budget and exacerbated by two wars being fought side by side. If you think that everything RAF should be sweetness and light, you have indeed missed your vocation. This one is about service and duty, and men and women little older than you, no doubt, are doing both in spades right now. I salute them, and hope in turn to be able to salute you, as I do them, with respect.
So we enter a New Year, and we both should ponder our resolutions for 2007. Mine, I'm sure you would agree, must be to lighten up and get a life! And yours?
Happy New Year to you, your colleagues, to all who serve, especially those in harm's way, to all the BOFs like me (you have something invaluable to offer, experience), and all at Pprune Towers.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 31st Dec 2006 at 23:42.
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There is nothing in this life (other I guess than your own children - I wouldn't know) that comes close to the satisfaction in the words "Target Sighted" when you have spent hours ploughing up and down a dark and lumpy chunk of ocean and you go on to pull a fellow being alive from the sea.
If you think you're tough, how about going into a hostile country's defended airspace with no effective weapons, no escort and no plan B? Because if the Infantry are going to get the support they need you have to.
The Army want to be in a particular location. They don't really care that you are short on field length, power, fuel and a load of other stuff I don't know about. It's going to need all your skill but you do it because you are one of the best and you do the job right even if you break the aircraft in the process.
The Royal Air Force was the first and is still, pound for pound, the best. We just need a Sh1tload more pounds. That's politics, you have a vote, use it.
Sven
If you think you're tough, how about going into a hostile country's defended airspace with no effective weapons, no escort and no plan B? Because if the Infantry are going to get the support they need you have to.
The Army want to be in a particular location. They don't really care that you are short on field length, power, fuel and a load of other stuff I don't know about. It's going to need all your skill but you do it because you are one of the best and you do the job right even if you break the aircraft in the process.
The Royal Air Force was the first and is still, pound for pound, the best. We just need a Sh1tload more pounds. That's politics, you have a vote, use it.
Sven
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I was around MoD when Joint was invented (by Tories, who had won an Election by slimming out military waste and muddle), and was implemented under a non-Joint and thus compromised RN CDS. Labour started the process (many-names since) of trying to identify all cost-for-a-Mission, to work out best Joint solution - say, projecting power over the Himalayas: displace dodos from Br.Indian Ocean Territory, or sally forth from CVA-01. Feel free to object to the conclusion, but not the logic. Do not assume Tories would spend more on defence than G.Brown: it was Labour who invented UK nuclear Force, Tornado, Hawk, Nimrod, Jaguar, Lynx, Harrier, its RN platforms and CVF 01/02.
Much noise here misses many points: deleting a uniform colour would save nowt unless their tasks were removed, not just re-assigned. Whatever can be consolidated at training level already is - dentists, padres, rotary: all good, with Jointery at junior levels. If there were a conspiracy to Belgify/Canuckify, not one other rank would be displaced, but brass would. We would have heard the squeals by now.
Much noise here misses many points: deleting a uniform colour would save nowt unless their tasks were removed, not just re-assigned. Whatever can be consolidated at training level already is - dentists, padres, rotary: all good, with Jointery at junior levels. If there were a conspiracy to Belgify/Canuckify, not one other rank would be displaced, but brass would. We would have heard the squeals by now.
Last edited by tornadoken; 6th Jan 2007 at 19:33.
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Finally, a post worthy of actually logging in and lending support - and its been a long time since anything has stirred me to log on! Well done tornadoken, common sense at last and a point others should consider. Those in the RAF - and technically I still am although on Terminal leave - stop with the moaning. You have a choice, go or stay, make it and get on. Please don't dribble on this forum about I might or might not. No one is going to beg you stay - someone WILL take your place. Yes, we might miss out on the next CAS, but there will be others. Life goes on. Do whats best for you and stop shouting about it. Mind you if you stay I would push for single seat FJ - your suited!
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I may have not even signed up yet, waiting for forms and interviews, and thus have little to back up my opinion as such.
However, I'm shocked at the thought of "shaft them before they shaft me". I'm joining up out of a sense of duty, there's a job that needs doing and I want to do it! The RAF needs every dedicated person it can get if this is an indication of the lack of committment it has currently. Every job should be done to your upmost, everything is your responsability - even if your shift is soon to end or that "isn't in my job description".
Chins up lads, I may be young and naieve but damnit I want to make a difference!
However, I'm shocked at the thought of "shaft them before they shaft me". I'm joining up out of a sense of duty, there's a job that needs doing and I want to do it! The RAF needs every dedicated person it can get if this is an indication of the lack of committment it has currently. Every job should be done to your upmost, everything is your responsability - even if your shift is soon to end or that "isn't in my job description".
Chins up lads, I may be young and naieve but damnit I want to make a difference!
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Something experienced and overheard at an airfield in west London.
TB of London flying out on a chartered aircraft from aforementioned base, rather than the supplied large aircraft in its lovely new white trim, unlike MB of London who is. One of MB's aides asked why TB wasn't using the aircraft, reply was that they had gone u/s on him twice and he wasn't happy with their reliability.
TB of London flying out on a chartered aircraft from aforementioned base, rather than the supplied large aircraft in its lovely new white trim, unlike MB of London who is. One of MB's aides asked why TB wasn't using the aircraft, reply was that they had gone u/s on him twice and he wasn't happy with their reliability.
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Purple champion advocates UFO technology
Tinfoil hats on, chaps and chapesses. The man who steered Canada's Armed Forces into the purple paradise is now advocating the use of 'captured' UFO technology to combat global warming.
Are these traits by any chance related? I think we should be told: The truth is, after all, out there!
Are these traits by any chance related? I think we should be told: The truth is, after all, out there!
UFO science key to halting climate change: former Canadian defense minister.
OTTAWA (AFP) - A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday.
"I would like to see what (alien) technology there might be that could eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that could be a way to save our planet," Paul Hellyer, 83, told the Ottawa Citizen.
Alien spacecrafts would have traveled vast distances to reach Earth, and so must be equipped with advanced propulsion systems or used exceptional fuels, he told the newspaper.
Such alien technologies could offer humanity alternatives to fossil fuels, he said, pointing to the enigmatic 1947 incident in Roswell, New Mexico -- which has become a shrine for UFO believers -- as an example of alien contact.
"We need to persuade governments to come clean on what they know. Some of us suspect they know quite a lot, and it might be enough to save our planet if applied quickly enough," he said.
Hellyer became defense minister in former prime minister Lester Pearson's cabinet in 1963, and oversaw the controversial integration and unification of Canada's army, air force and navy into the Canadian Forces.
He shocked Canadians in September 2005 by announcing he once saw a UFO.
OTTAWA (AFP) - A former Canadian defense minister is demanding governments worldwide disclose and use secret alien technologies obtained in alleged UFO crashes to stem climate change, a local paper said Wednesday.
"I would like to see what (alien) technology there might be that could eliminate the burning of fossil fuels within a generation ... that could be a way to save our planet," Paul Hellyer, 83, told the Ottawa Citizen.
Alien spacecrafts would have traveled vast distances to reach Earth, and so must be equipped with advanced propulsion systems or used exceptional fuels, he told the newspaper.
Such alien technologies could offer humanity alternatives to fossil fuels, he said, pointing to the enigmatic 1947 incident in Roswell, New Mexico -- which has become a shrine for UFO believers -- as an example of alien contact.
"We need to persuade governments to come clean on what they know. Some of us suspect they know quite a lot, and it might be enough to save our planet if applied quickly enough," he said.
Hellyer became defense minister in former prime minister Lester Pearson's cabinet in 1963, and oversaw the controversial integration and unification of Canada's army, air force and navy into the Canadian Forces.
He shocked Canadians in September 2005 by announcing he once saw a UFO.
