Have we violated the "rules" of war in Iraq?
Thread Starter
Have we violated the "rules" of war in Iraq?
"VICTORIOUS WARRIORS WIN FIRST...
AND THEN GO TO WAR,
WHILE DEFEATED WARRIORS GO TO WAR FIRST...
AND THEN SEEK TO WIN." Sun tzu
AND THEN GO TO WAR,
WHILE DEFEATED WARRIORS GO TO WAR FIRST...
AND THEN SEEK TO WIN." Sun tzu
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Regrettably, Sun Tzu isn't fashionable. Von Clausewitz is, though; if only certain grown-ups were capable of interpretating his work beyond their own preconceived views. Although not totally aligned to the point being made here, http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/jfq_pubs/0535.pdf is a fair example of the openess to misinterpretation or selective interpretation.
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Regrettably, Sun Tzu isn't fashionable. Von Clausewitz is, though; if only certain grown-ups were capable of interpretating his work beyond their own preconceived views. Although not totally aligned to the point being made here, http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/jfq_pubs/0535.pdf is a fair example of the openess to misinterpretation or selective interpretation.
If you currently look at the tactics displayed at the Grand strategic level, unfortunately it is all "we are more powerful than you therefore we will win/check out the Body count it is all that counts" (how many times have you heard body counts advertised in MOD/DOD press releases, vis a vis Vietnam circa 1960's during the Linebacker raids)
Unfortunately, as history dictates, Attritional warfare always tends to be ultimately costly for nations and thus these nations historically tend to lose. (check out the recession that is about to befall america, I very much doubt wartime spending will be massively popular with growing unemployment rates).
I read through Sun Tsu last time I was in the desert; I stopped at chapter 3 as it was just plain depressing in how many areas we have gone wrong.
Last edited by mbga9pgf; 25th Dec 2006 at 16:08.
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As Clausewitz wrote:
"Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln."
"War is the continuation of politics with different means".
So, IMHO, the politicians violated the rules of war. (probably against the advice of their generals?)
At my time CLAUSEWITZ was still fundamental education at an Officers academy, besides "air warefare".
But, who of our politicians knows CLAUSEWITZ?
I guess the german "ministry of defence" convinced chancelor Schröder NOT to participate in this war.
Besides, german military history shows, that a war sceneries like Irak is not depending only on strong forces. Example WWII Yugoslavia.
Loosing worldwars is influencing the education of military leaders!
Great Britain and the USA did not loose!
And additionally, after loosing two worldwars, germany found out that haircut and shoeshine, sharp saluting had no influence on winning a war!
"Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln."
"War is the continuation of politics with different means".
So, IMHO, the politicians violated the rules of war. (probably against the advice of their generals?)
At my time CLAUSEWITZ was still fundamental education at an Officers academy, besides "air warefare".
But, who of our politicians knows CLAUSEWITZ?
I guess the german "ministry of defence" convinced chancelor Schröder NOT to participate in this war.
Besides, german military history shows, that a war sceneries like Irak is not depending only on strong forces. Example WWII Yugoslavia.
Loosing worldwars is influencing the education of military leaders!
Great Britain and the USA did not loose!
And additionally, after loosing two worldwars, germany found out that haircut and shoeshine, sharp saluting had no influence on winning a war!
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Perhaps an edited version of a short speach delivered at the Soldiers' National Cemetery in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, on November 19, 1863, might fit the current hopes of the politicians, however ill-conceived:
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
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War may be politics by a different means but when a politician overrides the forcefully expressed opinions of those he claims to represent and goes his own way because "it is the right thing to do", you're on a guaranteed loser. Meanwhile, the true purpose of the armed forces - defence of the national territory is ignored and the treasury remains hostile to spending money on the leader's deranged dream.
We're in a mess and there's no way out for at least four years. If that.
We're in a mess and there's no way out for at least four years. If that.
Thread Starter
DIFF,
A few years back, I found myself stranded near Gettysburg for the Easter Holiday. The weather being very pretty, trees all green, grass green, flowers blooming....seemed a perfect opportunity to visit the battlefield.
One day I found myself walking the route of Pickett's Attack (third day of the battle)....the same path some of my ancestors travelled all those years before. I walked that mile and a half up the hill towards what is now known as the "High Water Mark" of the Confederacy. That is the point at which Georgia and North Carolina troops penetrated the Union lines by the stone wall atop the hill.
As I sat on the wall....contemplating all that had occurred there and thinking of all the soldiers from both sides that died there, were wounded and maimed there....fighting for what they believed was "Right".....I was moved beyond which words can describe adequately.
What can motivate men to endure the terrible effect of massed rifle fire, cannon fire, and finally rifle butts, bayonets, and knives....and continue the attack as they did....it is hard to imagine. At the same time, considering the courage it took to take a stand and not retreat or even withdraw....using bayonets and clubbed rifle butts to meet the enemy's charge also is hard to imagine.
This took place within a few hundred yards of the site at which Lincoln gave that wonderful speech. That site is surrounded by thousands of graves of Union Army dead....Southerners were buried where they fell on the battlefield before being moved long after the battle.
As I sat there in considering how sacred that bit of ground is....knowing the fate of the union was actually determined by the outcome of that battle. I was absolutely aghast as a tourist with a dog on a long lead was about to let her dog **** within feet of the "High Water" marker.
I had a US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot flashback....explained in my very best parade ground command voice....just what I was going to do to her and her dog's crap if her dog did in fact ****.
He did not....she wound him in onto a very short lease and left the site in a very hurried manner.
Silence was heard over that part of Gettysburg....until a Law Enforcement Park Ranger leaned over and whispered...."Would you have made her eat that like you said?" After I informed him I most certainly would have....he smiled and quietly said...."Well done Sir! Enjoy your day here!"
The sad thing Diff....so very many people have no clue what our military does nor understand the sacrifices they and their families make so that the rest of us can enjoy our freedom in peace.
It does not hurt to remind them whenever you get a chance.
A few years back, I found myself stranded near Gettysburg for the Easter Holiday. The weather being very pretty, trees all green, grass green, flowers blooming....seemed a perfect opportunity to visit the battlefield.
One day I found myself walking the route of Pickett's Attack (third day of the battle)....the same path some of my ancestors travelled all those years before. I walked that mile and a half up the hill towards what is now known as the "High Water Mark" of the Confederacy. That is the point at which Georgia and North Carolina troops penetrated the Union lines by the stone wall atop the hill.
As I sat on the wall....contemplating all that had occurred there and thinking of all the soldiers from both sides that died there, were wounded and maimed there....fighting for what they believed was "Right".....I was moved beyond which words can describe adequately.
What can motivate men to endure the terrible effect of massed rifle fire, cannon fire, and finally rifle butts, bayonets, and knives....and continue the attack as they did....it is hard to imagine. At the same time, considering the courage it took to take a stand and not retreat or even withdraw....using bayonets and clubbed rifle butts to meet the enemy's charge also is hard to imagine.
This took place within a few hundred yards of the site at which Lincoln gave that wonderful speech. That site is surrounded by thousands of graves of Union Army dead....Southerners were buried where they fell on the battlefield before being moved long after the battle.
As I sat there in considering how sacred that bit of ground is....knowing the fate of the union was actually determined by the outcome of that battle. I was absolutely aghast as a tourist with a dog on a long lead was about to let her dog **** within feet of the "High Water" marker.
I had a US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot flashback....explained in my very best parade ground command voice....just what I was going to do to her and her dog's crap if her dog did in fact ****.
He did not....she wound him in onto a very short lease and left the site in a very hurried manner.
Silence was heard over that part of Gettysburg....until a Law Enforcement Park Ranger leaned over and whispered...."Would you have made her eat that like you said?" After I informed him I most certainly would have....he smiled and quietly said...."Well done Sir! Enjoy your day here!"
The sad thing Diff....so very many people have no clue what our military does nor understand the sacrifices they and their families make so that the rest of us can enjoy our freedom in peace.
It does not hurt to remind them whenever you get a chance.
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Moving indeed SASless, and I too am amazed at the reckless bravery of those men who fought at Gettysburg, but I'm afraid that the only comparison with that noble place and what is currently going on in Iraq is the bravery of the men in the field. The ideals and motives of the political leadership are a quite different matter.
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I said this before on this site, but I'll say it again - anyone with even a passing interest in that incredible battle - (and if don't have a passing interest, do yourself an enormous favour and get one) - get your hands on a copy of 'The Killer Angels' by Michael Shaara, a blow by blow description in a most readable form of the three terrible days of Gettysburg.
I guarantee that most, having read 'The Killer Angels', will then want to read the prequel and sequel to the book, 'Gods and Generals' and 'The Last Full Measure', both these by Jeff Shaara.
I guarantee that most, having read 'The Killer Angels', will then want to read the prequel and sequel to the book, 'Gods and Generals' and 'The Last Full Measure', both these by Jeff Shaara.
Last edited by Wiley; 26th Dec 2006 at 11:26.
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Ah! the American Civil War: where many of the lessons of the 2nd World War were taught but few cared to learn. It had it all; grand frontal attacks, machine guns, artillery and trenches. What was it Henry Ford said about history?
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Cnn Article on Iran
Problem is, will the US want to wait this long?
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Slight Thread drift but this was interesting this morning, the Fergal Keane interview; http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/takingastand/pip/y1krx/ . A valuable insight, I think.
Thread Starter
A short article which discusses the Gettysburg battle...by a well known American historian known for his study of the American War Between the States.
Points out the dangers of departing from one's winning stategy.
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...lmistakes.aspx
Points out the dangers of departing from one's winning stategy.
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com...lmistakes.aspx
GET A LIFE YOU LOT!!
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Well if we were allowed to rape and pillage like in Sun Tzu's age and not worry about building a stable democratic state, I'm sure his tactics would work a treat!
Nice history book though.
Nice history book though.
Thread Starter
If we ignore history....are we then bound to repeat it?
History book?
As I read Sun Tzu's teachings...it is far more than a history book. He has some very good ideas that still apply today and will always be pertinent.
Weapons and equipment may change due to techological improvements but ultimately it will be the same clash of arms that decides the winner.
A good website for Sun Tzu's teachings..... http://www.sonshi.com/index.html
An excerpt from his writings...
As I read Sun Tzu's teachings...it is far more than a history book. He has some very good ideas that still apply today and will always be pertinent.
Weapons and equipment may change due to techological improvements but ultimately it will be the same clash of arms that decides the winner.
A good website for Sun Tzu's teachings..... http://www.sonshi.com/index.html
An excerpt from his writings...
If the army is exposed to a prolonged campaign, the nation's resources will not suffice. ?
When weapons are blunted, and ardor dampened, strength exhausted, and resources depleted, the neighboring rulers will take advantage of these complications. ?
Then even the wisest of counsels would not be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. ?
Therefore, I have heard of military campaigns that were clumsy but swift, but I have never seen military campaigns that were skilled but protracted.
No nation has ever benefited from protracted warfare. ?
When weapons are blunted, and ardor dampened, strength exhausted, and resources depleted, the neighboring rulers will take advantage of these complications. ?
Then even the wisest of counsels would not be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. ?
Therefore, I have heard of military campaigns that were clumsy but swift, but I have never seen military campaigns that were skilled but protracted.
No nation has ever benefited from protracted warfare. ?
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SASless. I think you're on a winner here. Some stuff has been forgotten.
You'd think the Americans would remember what they learned in Vietnam as they planned GW2.
If they learned anything that is, apart from not counting non-US dead.
You can't move in and hold a Country if they all hate you.
At least not without taking continual casualties and eventually leaving with your ass kicked.
You'd think the Americans would remember what they learned in Vietnam as they planned GW2.
If they learned anything that is, apart from not counting non-US dead.
You can't move in and hold a Country if they all hate you.
At least not without taking continual casualties and eventually leaving with your ass kicked.
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No nation has ever benefited from protracted warfare