Trying To Get Home
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"I could easily see a door/loader scrape occurring, which would not be the fault of the movers"......................
Please explain as that's all lost on me
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Please explain as that's all lost on me
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Dec 2006
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in fact, the on-time stats for both AT and Charter are within a % of each other at around 58%"
Well statistics can show what ever you want. But this operation isn't what the trade would call a "normal operation" When the 747 crew and aircraft are set to go (fuelled up . . . pax ready to board . . . flt plan in etc etc ) but the customer then says they want them to wait for a piece of "important freight" that needs to be on board then the charter has to obviously wait. The 2 hr delay goes down (on stats) as a late departure . . . but what control did the charter have on this ?
None at all, of course. The charter endeavours to be as flexible as possible to accomodate the customer's needs. Freight pallets wrong size ? Well let's just knock them down, rebuild a little and accept the delay. A senior officer late en-route ? ( maybe for a very plausible reason ) . . . . well just hold the flt and forget that the charter's en-time departure stats will suffer.
You can bat as much blame as you want towards the charter but the fact is that 99% of the time the 747 charter is there and ready to go . . . but the customer himself delays the departure. Sometimes for the reasons above . . . sometimes for an incorrect loading. How come ASI and MPA always give a load well within the c of g envelope but Brize often don't ? Have a look back and see how many times the Brize loadsheet is out and the load has to be re-adjusted ? Obviously not intentional of course . . . but check the facts and you'll see it has happened. MPA have a MS XL spreadsheet programme that ensures a good load EVERY time . . . . how come Brize don't use it ?
Look at where the delays stem from. Delays at ASI are rare. Delays into MPA are normally down to weather ( x-winds) and so are out of everybody's hands . . . the high % of the customer delays are out of Brize.
So when you read stats about late departures then read them in the same way that the government assure us that we're all paying less tax and the NHS is working. Stats might say this but the man in the street knows it's a load of cock.
If we load the 747 on time and within the envelope ( and our VIP pax are positioned at Brize according to schedule ) then our charter will meet our scheduled time of departure and the airbridge will run on time. When we don't then he will run late . . . but don't let's just chalk this up as a 58% on / off time for the stats; best we look and see what part we ( ie RAF Brize ) are playing in this.
You can change the charter as much as you want but if you don't address the real cause of the delays (and 58% shouldn't be acceptable) then we'll never sort the problem out. There's a lot we can do to improve these "stats" . . . if only we admit we have a part to play.
All the best for 2007
Well statistics can show what ever you want. But this operation isn't what the trade would call a "normal operation" When the 747 crew and aircraft are set to go (fuelled up . . . pax ready to board . . . flt plan in etc etc ) but the customer then says they want them to wait for a piece of "important freight" that needs to be on board then the charter has to obviously wait. The 2 hr delay goes down (on stats) as a late departure . . . but what control did the charter have on this ?
None at all, of course. The charter endeavours to be as flexible as possible to accomodate the customer's needs. Freight pallets wrong size ? Well let's just knock them down, rebuild a little and accept the delay. A senior officer late en-route ? ( maybe for a very plausible reason ) . . . . well just hold the flt and forget that the charter's en-time departure stats will suffer.
You can bat as much blame as you want towards the charter but the fact is that 99% of the time the 747 charter is there and ready to go . . . but the customer himself delays the departure. Sometimes for the reasons above . . . sometimes for an incorrect loading. How come ASI and MPA always give a load well within the c of g envelope but Brize often don't ? Have a look back and see how many times the Brize loadsheet is out and the load has to be re-adjusted ? Obviously not intentional of course . . . but check the facts and you'll see it has happened. MPA have a MS XL spreadsheet programme that ensures a good load EVERY time . . . . how come Brize don't use it ?
Look at where the delays stem from. Delays at ASI are rare. Delays into MPA are normally down to weather ( x-winds) and so are out of everybody's hands . . . the high % of the customer delays are out of Brize.
So when you read stats about late departures then read them in the same way that the government assure us that we're all paying less tax and the NHS is working. Stats might say this but the man in the street knows it's a load of cock.
If we load the 747 on time and within the envelope ( and our VIP pax are positioned at Brize according to schedule ) then our charter will meet our scheduled time of departure and the airbridge will run on time. When we don't then he will run late . . . but don't let's just chalk this up as a 58% on / off time for the stats; best we look and see what part we ( ie RAF Brize ) are playing in this.
You can change the charter as much as you want but if you don't address the real cause of the delays (and 58% shouldn't be acceptable) then we'll never sort the problem out. There's a lot we can do to improve these "stats" . . . if only we admit we have a part to play.
All the best for 2007
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Bin-Oolie,
Here's the other end of the stick, old chap, as i think you have the wrong one
I don't really see anyone seriously batting at the charter here...genuine folk trying to get home, genuine folk trying to get them home, and other genuine folk wondering why we have to try so hard to get them home on time - but no-one bashing the charter.
Please re-read my original post:
I thought i was leaving it to your intuition, but clearly that's not enough...it is option 'c' that is the issue.
-It is option 'c' that needs addressing,
-and it is option 'c' that any of us connected with RAF AT must address at the moment in time to improve the service and save our credibility with our customers.
I'm guessing the Timmy should be somewhere mid-journey right now - top effort chaps, enjoy your Christmas.
Here's to the Turkey and some good stuffing on Christmas Day,
Uncle G
Here's the other end of the stick, old chap, as i think you have the wrong one
I don't really see anyone seriously batting at the charter here...genuine folk trying to get home, genuine folk trying to get them home, and other genuine folk wondering why we have to try so hard to get them home on time - but no-one bashing the charter.
Please re-read my original post:
So what does that mean?
a. Poor ac serviceability of an ageing fleet is irrelevant?
b. Our charters are equally poor?
or c. There is a common factor (whether it be process or people) dealing with both Service AT and Charter ac that delay 42% of all flights (give or take a few % for other factors)?
a. Poor ac serviceability of an ageing fleet is irrelevant?
b. Our charters are equally poor?
or c. There is a common factor (whether it be process or people) dealing with both Service AT and Charter ac that delay 42% of all flights (give or take a few % for other factors)?
-It is option 'c' that needs addressing,
-and it is option 'c' that any of us connected with RAF AT must address at the moment in time to improve the service and save our credibility with our customers.
I'm guessing the Timmy should be somewhere mid-journey right now - top effort chaps, enjoy your Christmas.
Here's to the Turkey and some good stuffing on Christmas Day,
Uncle G
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 25th Dec 2006 at 15:08. Reason: as i had to dash to catch Auntie B's speech!
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Home at last a job well done by 216 Sqn
Just have to say a massive thanks to 216 Sqn and the crew from yesterday. I felt that the pax were superbly looked after in the spirit of the day .
I believe OC 216 will be recieving a few lauditory letters.
Also considering that it was an early check-in at MPA on Xmas morning, it was the most civil and painless time that I have spent in the terminal so thanks to all at MPA for getting us away a little early.
Finally well done to the ASI staff who managed the 1Hr turn around to ensure that the crew had a slightly shorter crew duty day.
Thanks to all and wish you all the best in the New Year.
Now back to catch up on all the Stella and Champers that I missed out on yesterday.
Bayete
.I believe OC 216 will be recieving a few lauditory letters.
Also considering that it was an early check-in at MPA on Xmas morning, it was the most civil and painless time that I have spent in the terminal so thanks to all at MPA for getting us away a little early.
Finally well done to the ASI staff who managed the 1Hr turn around to ensure that the crew had a slightly shorter crew duty day.
Thanks to all and wish you all the best in the New Year.
Now back to catch up on all the Stella and Champers that I missed out on yesterday.
Bayete
Last edited by bayete; 26th Dec 2006 at 13:01. Reason: Spelling
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Sounds like 216 Sqn really performed excellently for you! Well done to all concerned!
Looking back on this thread, it appears that they got airborne from the UK in the evening of the 23rd, flew to the Falklands, and managed to get you home late on Christmas day or very early on Boxing day! What a fabulous effort! I bet you'd never see the like from a civilian charter service!
Happy Holiday to all!
Looking back on this thread, it appears that they got airborne from the UK in the evening of the 23rd, flew to the Falklands, and managed to get you home late on Christmas day or very early on Boxing day! What a fabulous effort! I bet you'd never see the like from a civilian charter service!
Happy Holiday to all!
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Temps,
OK, seeing as it's Christmas, I admit that maybe I've jumped to a conclusion without knowing the whole story. So perhaps you can help me out and correct me. Would a civilian charter service have been able to match that performance, from a standing start, presumably with no crews positioned around the route?
OK, seeing as it's Christmas, I admit that maybe I've jumped to a conclusion without knowing the whole story. So perhaps you can help me out and correct me. Would a civilian charter service have been able to match that performance, from a standing start, presumably with no crews positioned around the route?
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LFFC
Thanks for the levelled response. We move in different spheres of aviation, but at the end of the day, the end game is the same, to provide a service. Sometimes things go wrong which we have little or no control over and it would be incorrect to tar all involed with the same brush.
My employer does a lot or government work and we value that business. We also recognise that we are required to supply you the customer the service that you pay for.
In answer to your question, could we provide the same response level that was done on this ocassion, probably not as like you we have crew hour limitations, but without the crews down route, we would have had to contend with the issue of crew rest, tech support etc. So well done to the folks concerned on this ocassion.
Temps
Thanks for the levelled response. We move in different spheres of aviation, but at the end of the day, the end game is the same, to provide a service. Sometimes things go wrong which we have little or no control over and it would be incorrect to tar all involed with the same brush.
My employer does a lot or government work and we value that business. We also recognise that we are required to supply you the customer the service that you pay for.
In answer to your question, could we provide the same response level that was done on this ocassion, probably not as like you we have crew hour limitations, but without the crews down route, we would have had to contend with the issue of crew rest, tech support etc. So well done to the folks concerned on this ocassion.
Temps
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LFFC
In answer to your question, could we provide the same response level that was done on this ocassion, probably not as like you we have crew hour limitations, but without the crews down route, we would have had to contend with the issue of crew rest, tech support etc. So well done to the folks concerned on this ocassion.
Temps
In answer to your question, could we provide the same response level that was done on this ocassion, probably not as like you we have crew hour limitations, but without the crews down route, we would have had to contend with the issue of crew rest, tech support etc. So well done to the folks concerned on this ocassion.
Temps
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Thank you everyone
Hi all,
216 Sqn bust a gut to make this trip work and as one of those involved all the way round it was worth all the initial heartache. Yes my Xmas day may have to be today now but any hurt has been wiped away by the comments here on the forum, the thanks from the adults but most importantly the smiles from the children warmed all hearts. I know many of us will remember one particluar face, coming North, of 2 children when they realised that Santa had managed to leave "presents" for them with the crew.
Priceless..............absolutely priceless.
All involved all the way round made every effort to get the trip completed as soon as possible and I would like to express my thanks to all concerned. (Yes even to the movers especially in ASI!) Several expressed regret that more could not have been done and I give you this one thought.
If you can look in a mirror and say to your conscience that you did your best then you can ask no more of yourself!
Thanks again to all involved, this worked because we all behaved as a single unit. Lets continue to do this.
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year.
Lowkey
216 Sqn bust a gut to make this trip work and as one of those involved all the way round it was worth all the initial heartache. Yes my Xmas day may have to be today now but any hurt has been wiped away by the comments here on the forum, the thanks from the adults but most importantly the smiles from the children warmed all hearts. I know many of us will remember one particluar face, coming North, of 2 children when they realised that Santa had managed to leave "presents" for them with the crew.
Priceless..............absolutely priceless.
All involved all the way round made every effort to get the trip completed as soon as possible and I would like to express my thanks to all concerned. (Yes even to the movers especially in ASI!) Several expressed regret that more could not have been done and I give you this one thought.
If you can look in a mirror and say to your conscience that you did your best then you can ask no more of yourself!
Thanks again to all involved, this worked because we all behaved as a single unit. Lets continue to do this.
Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year.
Lowkey
Last edited by Lowkey; 27th Dec 2006 at 11:53.
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Well done 216, probably the good Christmas story of the seeason. Acidents happen and people in all 3 services always step up to the plate to recover the situation but that is due in the main to them having goodwill and loyalty to their fellow servicemen but this is continually being eroded. CinC Strike would do well to remember this after his 2 page ramble of the year to date and the cheery news that it isnt going to get any better.
I only hope that it does get better in 2007, but in the mean time, aircrew, movers, Opsies and all involved........well done
I only hope that it does get better in 2007, but in the mean time, aircrew, movers, Opsies and all involved........well done
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Christmas Cheer
I would like to echo the sentiments expressed by Lowkey. The faces of those two young girls made everything worthwhile. Their smiles and joy touched everyone on the aircraft, it was wonderful
. Thankyou to all those on the crew who, from midnight on 22, were determined to achieve this task in the quickest and safest way possible. Your CAN DO attitude was exceptional and it was a privilege to be part of that crew. I would also like to pass on my personal thanks to all those at ASI and MPA who were instrumental in our rapid turn rounds. A final thanks goes to our families (the crew) who, despite having to postpone their christmas festivities, supported us all the way. I hope you all had a Merry Christmas and Best wishes for the New Year. See you around the bazaars in 2007
Personally I've been very satisfied from the crew of the contract aircraft into and out of theatre. Sure, sometimes an individual Flight Attendant might not behave as sweet as a bunch of freshly picked roses, but they've probably had to deal with a few A-holes just before serving me my cup of tea, and they've probably had their own personal lives messed up a little from delays or other setbacks.
I happily add that my most recent charter flight was all smiles - with service and banter even better than many of my holiday trips with the large commercial airlines. Even the Captain threw in some jolly banter over the intercom.
Thankyou
I happily add that my most recent charter flight was all smiles - with service and banter even better than many of my holiday trips with the large commercial airlines. Even the Captain threw in some jolly banter over the intercom.
Thankyou
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Rumour has it that the Muppets were moving their crimble tree - took a wrong turn in the fog - the forklift lost nosewheel steering - the hot toddy flask slipped and as they reached to grab it - the forklift departed and the tree it was carrying impaled the Timmy .......... ?
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Many years ago (1988 if memory serves) 216 got me (a civilian no less) out of a scrape . I was left alone with only a credit card and passport in Singapore while my Hawk lift continued to Australia (having started in UK). Anyway 216 were passing by supporting the F3 Golden Eagle holiday (sorry tour) and happened to be in the area. A couple of phone calls later and next day I was taken to Darwin to rejoin the Hawks. Very happy daze - thanks again 216.
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Bust Again
The South Atlantic charter is bust again. 
This time a technical problem, means it is two days late and has to fly low and slow and stop at Rio on the way to ASI and Tenerife on the way to blighty for fuel. 
Contrary to some of the threads this is not unusual it happens at least twice a month. 
There are two big problems with this airbridge.
1. There are too many stakeholders involved in getting it off the ground on time both in the UK and at MPA. Everyone wants there little bit of power and half the stakeholders don't even talk to each other.
2. The whole thing is run by contractors right from entering the gate at Brize through to building the pallets, driving the vehicles, supplying and flying the aircraft etc etc. Now lets face it we don't usually go out and get the best contractor do we? They are the cheapest money can buy and in life you get what you pay for and we are pretty good at accepting the dross and paying even when the various contractors fail. If we didn't there would be no Board of Directors jobs for retiring top brass.....!!!!
This time a technical problem, means it is two days late and has to fly low and slow and stop at Rio on the way to ASI and Tenerife on the way to blighty for fuel. Contrary to some of the threads this is not unusual it happens at least twice a month. There are two big problems with this airbridge.1. There are too many stakeholders involved in getting it off the ground on time both in the UK and at MPA. Everyone wants there little bit of power and half the stakeholders don't even talk to each other.
2. The whole thing is run by contractors right from entering the gate at Brize through to building the pallets, driving the vehicles, supplying and flying the aircraft etc etc. Now lets face it we don't usually go out and get the best contractor do we? They are the cheapest money can buy and in life you get what you pay for and we are pretty good at accepting the dross and paying even when the various contractors fail. If we didn't there would be no Board of Directors jobs for retiring top brass.....!!!!
