MFTS
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MFTS
It looks like the MFTS deal has been given the green light.
The Times - 13 Nov 06
The Times - 13 Nov 06
Last week, the MoD’s investment approval board (IAB), its top decision-making body on spending, gave the green light to a £2 billion PFI to supply pilot and aircrew training to all three British Armed Forces — the military flying training system (MFTS).
The IAB’s decision on MFTS is likely to be signed off by Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, and the Treasury over the next few weeks. An announcement is expected early next month.
The IAB’s decision on MFTS is likely to be signed off by Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, and the Treasury over the next few weeks. An announcement is expected early next month.
When one asks the MFTS people "And where, pray, are you going to find a sustainable source of QFIs", there is alaways a loud sucking of teeth and a bit of foot-shuffling.......
Talking to a chap from one of the new dumbed-down UASs, I discovered:
There aren't enough QFIs to go around. They get round that by using a few AEF pilots who are still current QFIs.... So why are they available - are the AEFs overmanned?
There aren't enough QFIs to be able to supervise solo students from the tower - they've got round that by changing the rules to require less supervision of their less trained pilots.....
There is virtually NO ground instruction. The chap couldn't even reecognise an engine valve, for example.
Where will it all end? Hopefully not with a smoking hole!
Talking to a chap from one of the new dumbed-down UASs, I discovered:
There aren't enough QFIs to go around. They get round that by using a few AEF pilots who are still current QFIs.... So why are they available - are the AEFs overmanned?
There aren't enough QFIs to be able to supervise solo students from the tower - they've got round that by changing the rules to require less supervision of their less trained pilots.....
There is virtually NO ground instruction. The chap couldn't even reecognise an engine valve, for example.
Where will it all end? Hopefully not with a smoking hole!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: On the outside looking in
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Times article:
Not a bad return on £129K. Wonder what happened to the govt's £290m.
sw
# Sir John Chisholm, the chairman, saw the 2 per cent stake that he acquired in 2002 for £129,000 become a holding worth £28 million
# Graham Love, chief executive, became worth £23 million through his 1.6 per cent holding
# Carlyle, the US private equity fund, cut its holding from 30.5 per cent to 13 per cent, taking out £161 million
# The Government cut its stake from 56 per cent to 23.9 per cent, gaining about £290 million
# Graham Love, chief executive, became worth £23 million through his 1.6 per cent holding
# Carlyle, the US private equity fund, cut its holding from 30.5 per cent to 13 per cent, taking out £161 million
# The Government cut its stake from 56 per cent to 23.9 per cent, gaining about £290 million
sw
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the Ether
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At least MFTS seems to be progressing. I would have thought that FSTA would have warranted an appearance in that article (cue Beagle) unless they know something we don't....does anyone know the latest developments on that front?
Beags - On the UAS front:
That depends how you define "enough".
True. But this rule hasn't changed for the UAS's - back when they were still providing EFT, there was no requirement for a QFI in the tower, or even on the ground (with the exception of cct consol). The three EFT Sqns are deemed to have sufficient manning to increase supervision, and so the current orders reflect that new requirement (since the UAS/EFT changes)
Beags - On the UAS front:
There aren't enough QFIs to go around
There aren't enough QFIs to be able to supervise solo students from the tower - they've got round that by changing the rules to require less supervision of their less trained pilots
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In the State of Denial
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 146 Likes
on
28 Posts
I despair when I think of the first class flying training system we had when I joined in the 80s and what it has now become, through relentless privatisation & cost saving schemes. The quality of student pilot arriving on my OCU today can be enough to make you weep, & in less than a year these guys & girls are going to be flying in Iraq & Afghanistan - in 3 years they're expected to become captains!
I suppose I can hope that MFTS will improve the quality of the pilots from the training system, but the endless pursuit of ever cheaper training will not produce the goods, I fear.
I suppose I can hope that MFTS will improve the quality of the pilots from the training system, but the endless pursuit of ever cheaper training will not produce the goods, I fear.
On the UAS front, I can say that a sqn of 55+ has been told that 2 QFIs are adequate....
We have at least another 2 from the local AEF who are now 'qualified' to teach in the air.
And yes, there is absolutely no ground training of an aircraft/technical nature.
We have at least another 2 from the local AEF who are now 'qualified' to teach in the air.
And yes, there is absolutely no ground training of an aircraft/technical nature.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: at the end of the bar
Posts: 484
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Foreign Air Forces perhaps? Civillian pay and conditions, could be quite an attractive proposition as an alternative to the airlines.
And by the time they run out, we'll be using UCAVs anyway, for which your Sony PSVII prowess will be more important!!
I find that gobsmacking.
In 1994 UBAS was about 55 students and had the Boss plus 4 full time QFI's. Several days a week there would be a tech/met/nav briefing either presented by staff or by a student.
Hell, I remember a superb background briefing on the work of being a Test Pilot by the recently ETPS QFI that held us all spellbound for 4 hours one wet Wednesday afternoon.
Sad.
WWW
We still of course have Met briefs before flying days, and on town nights a guest speaker will tell us about their job/role etc.
What Im saying is that when we are asked what engine does a Tutor use and what is it's power rating, no one knows.
The reduction in QFIs is mostly down to the fact that UASs no longer provide EFT, and therefore the flight training syllabus isnt quite as intensive, certainly, there's no grading after every flight. Though this does mean that during flying camps, when 15-20 are present, people would be lucky to get more than 2 flights in the entire week.
What Im saying is that when we are asked what engine does a Tutor use and what is it's power rating, no one knows.
The reduction in QFIs is mostly down to the fact that UASs no longer provide EFT, and therefore the flight training syllabus isnt quite as intensive, certainly, there's no grading after every flight. Though this does mean that during flying camps, when 15-20 are present, people would be lucky to get more than 2 flights in the entire week.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: on my own planet
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find that gobsmacking.
In 1994 UBAS was about 55 students and had the Boss plus 4 full time QFI's. Several days a week there would be a tech/met/nav briefing either presented by staff or by a student.
Hell, I remember a superb background briefing on the work of being a Test Pilot by the recently ETPS QFI that held us all spellbound for 4 hours one wet Wednesday afternoon.
Sad.
WWW
In 1994 UBAS was about 55 students and had the Boss plus 4 full time QFI's. Several days a week there would be a tech/met/nav briefing either presented by staff or by a student.
Hell, I remember a superb background briefing on the work of being a Test Pilot by the recently ETPS QFI that held us all spellbound for 4 hours one wet Wednesday afternoon.
Sad.
WWW
That last post can also be heard later tonight on BBC2....
What utter bolleaux from 'viffer' (doof doof, nozzles, mate, bona, MEXE....). Why on earth anyone would ever consider joining the University Air Scouts these days is beyond me. Join the OTC, do the mud and cabbage kit properly AND be paid better.
A taste of the future RAF = underfunding and inadequate training?
What utter bolleaux from 'viffer' (doof doof, nozzles, mate, bona, MEXE....). Why on earth anyone would ever consider joining the University Air Scouts these days is beyond me. Join the OTC, do the mud and cabbage kit properly AND be paid better.
A taste of the future RAF = underfunding and inadequate training?
Forgive the thread digression, but I feel I ought to try and defend the UASs. As has been mentioned, the UAS system no longer provides EFT to all aspiring pilots, but it has been massively enhanced in all other areas.
Every week there are opportunities for 2 different sessions of AT, there are many and regular expeds throughout the year. 10 of our number are currently in the Carribean, sailing around the BVIs. In March 20 are going skiing in Austria, and towards May, another BVI trip will happen. This is ontop of regular sailing trips in the Solent, Hebrides and to the Channel Islands. During the summer vacation we offer at least 2 more AT trips abroad, as well as many more chances to go to the Lakes, Snowdonia and many places besides.
During active camps, at summer, New Year or Easter, the AT chances also become many more varied; climbing, walking, sailing, kayaking, scrmabling, mountain biking to name but a few.
This is on top of the huge array of sports that are still available.
And we do the whole 'mud and cabbage' bit too, just not as often.
And I for one, would be more than willing to pay for this, I consider the pay I receive a bonus.
I would have hoped people here would appreciate ambition, and as it has been by aim for many, many years to enter the RAF, I find it disheartening to learn how derogatory everyone is.
Every week there are opportunities for 2 different sessions of AT, there are many and regular expeds throughout the year. 10 of our number are currently in the Carribean, sailing around the BVIs. In March 20 are going skiing in Austria, and towards May, another BVI trip will happen. This is ontop of regular sailing trips in the Solent, Hebrides and to the Channel Islands. During the summer vacation we offer at least 2 more AT trips abroad, as well as many more chances to go to the Lakes, Snowdonia and many places besides.
During active camps, at summer, New Year or Easter, the AT chances also become many more varied; climbing, walking, sailing, kayaking, scrmabling, mountain biking to name but a few.
This is on top of the huge array of sports that are still available.
And we do the whole 'mud and cabbage' bit too, just not as often.
And I for one, would be more than willing to pay for this, I consider the pay I receive a bonus.
I would have hoped people here would appreciate ambition, and as it has been by aim for many, many years to enter the RAF, I find it disheartening to learn how derogatory everyone is.
Of course it's marginally better than sitting in your pit, skinning up and catching exotic diseases, but the point is that the UAS system was once useful.
More than useful. It used to provide the cream of the Valley/Brawdy output (out of all proportion to the numbers). It used to reduce the chop rate among those who'd gone through it to the extent that it paid for itself - the savings in wasted JP/Hawk hours more than paid for all of the Bulldog flying.
And it used to motivate people.
There was a retention crisis when I was going through UAS, and we all knew about the (pardon me) "f*** factor" of Tacevals, the increasing hold lengths in the training pipeline, the endless defence cuts (the RAF was a shadow of what it had been even ten years before), etc. etc.
But two years on a UAS (three if you played your cards right) with proper flying training, and as many hours as you could hog was a powerful incentive to commit to the RAF, and no-one really cared about the negative points.
More than useful. It used to provide the cream of the Valley/Brawdy output (out of all proportion to the numbers). It used to reduce the chop rate among those who'd gone through it to the extent that it paid for itself - the savings in wasted JP/Hawk hours more than paid for all of the Bulldog flying.
And it used to motivate people.
There was a retention crisis when I was going through UAS, and we all knew about the (pardon me) "f*** factor" of Tacevals, the increasing hold lengths in the training pipeline, the endless defence cuts (the RAF was a shadow of what it had been even ten years before), etc. etc.
But two years on a UAS (three if you played your cards right) with proper flying training, and as many hours as you could hog was a powerful incentive to commit to the RAF, and no-one really cared about the negative points.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: on my own planet
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That last post can also be heard later tonight on BBC2....
What utter bolleaux from 'viffer' (doof doof, nozzles, mate, bona, MEXE....). Why on earth anyone would ever consider joining the University Air Scouts these days is beyond me. Join the OTC, do the mud and cabbage kit properly AND be paid better.
A taste of the future RAF = underfunding and inadequate training?
What utter bolleaux from 'viffer' (doof doof, nozzles, mate, bona, MEXE....). Why on earth anyone would ever consider joining the University Air Scouts these days is beyond me. Join the OTC, do the mud and cabbage kit properly AND be paid better.
A taste of the future RAF = underfunding and inadequate training?
A. I have never been nor ever will be a BONA mate...don't assume, check! Viffer can mean a whole load of things!
B. I never said that I approved or was trying to sell the UAS system, merely reporting what it now consists of. It was a statement of fact.
C. You really are a ******
Viffer,
Do calm down!
I must say that I also thought that your post sounded terribly like the kind of spin so often used to justify the changes to the UAS system. "Different, not diminished", you know the kind of bol.locks.
It probably sounded like that because it was so uncritical.
Now it may be that the old style system was no longer affordable, but to fail to acknowledge that excellence has been replaced by what is, at best, adequacy, seems wrong.
Do calm down!
I must say that I also thought that your post sounded terribly like the kind of spin so often used to justify the changes to the UAS system. "Different, not diminished", you know the kind of bol.locks.
It probably sounded like that because it was so uncritical.
Now it may be that the old style system was no longer affordable, but to fail to acknowledge that excellence has been replaced by what is, at best, adequacy, seems wrong.
Of course it's marginally better than sitting in your pit, skinning up and catching exotic diseases, but the point is that the UAS system was once useful.
More than useful. It used to provide the cream of the Valley/Brawdy output (out of all proportion to the numbers). It used to reduce the chop rate among those who'd gone through it to the extent that it paid for itself - the savings in wasted JP/Hawk hours more than paid for all of the Bulldog flying.
More than useful. It used to provide the cream of the Valley/Brawdy output (out of all proportion to the numbers). It used to reduce the chop rate among those who'd gone through it to the extent that it paid for itself - the savings in wasted JP/Hawk hours more than paid for all of the Bulldog flying.
The current system is better for all round developement, the old, better for pilot developement...
Just depends what the RAF really wants more of.
[Though, I say that after a week where 3 of our studes have been accepted as Pilots at either bursary or DE levels.]
Except that under the old scheme you'd probably have got a University Cadetship, been paid as an APO, and would have got a degree of Air Experience flying and some top vacation attachments.
The new system might give a bit of AE flying to ground branches, but the downside is too great, IMHO
The new system might give a bit of AE flying to ground branches, but the downside is too great, IMHO
I can see where you're coming from.
But even though I am technically a groundie, I am eligable for the full, current, flying syllabus. I just chose not to. I still get all the flying I want [10 hours+ since January to present] and have been on some pretty decent attachements, Leuchars in the summer and then a week at Cranwell just before restarting university. As for the cadetship and the APO, now the RAF offers a system whereby you take youe 'year in industry' with them and become an APO, this is more than likely something Ill be applying for.
I still feel more is available to more people this way.
So what if it doesnt give some the leg up it used to? The RAF has for quite a while said that it would rather prospective pilots NOT go to university, so that they [the RAF] has more of their 'valuable learning age'.
ANYWAY, we have veered somewhat...
But even though I am technically a groundie, I am eligable for the full, current, flying syllabus. I just chose not to. I still get all the flying I want [10 hours+ since January to present] and have been on some pretty decent attachements, Leuchars in the summer and then a week at Cranwell just before restarting university. As for the cadetship and the APO, now the RAF offers a system whereby you take youe 'year in industry' with them and become an APO, this is more than likely something Ill be applying for.
I still feel more is available to more people this way.
So what if it doesnt give some the leg up it used to? The RAF has for quite a while said that it would rather prospective pilots NOT go to university, so that they [the RAF] has more of their 'valuable learning age'.
ANYWAY, we have veered somewhat...
Last edited by muppetofthenorth; 15th Nov 2006 at 00:51. Reason: trying [possibly in vain] to regain aim of thread
Christ on a bike - what is it? The Duke of Edinburgh adventure training club for the 18 - 22yr old?!?
WWW
WWW
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
It's pity the RAF can't just admit that the UAS system is snookered. Why not just hand some cash to the Army and direct all those interested to the UOTC. Those that want to get some flying in could be enrolled in their nearest ATC squadron and go AEFing.