Ethnic differences in pilots
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Ethnic differences in pilots
This is not a small minded racsist post, it is a honest question.
It is well documented that there are physical differences between different ethnic groups. Including physical performance.
Caucasian people in general have proved to be better at water sports (slympic swimming etc)
Black people are better sprinters (due to I think, bone structure and a higher percentage of white blood cells that give an immediate release of oxygen to the muscles).
There are many areas where ethnic background helps or impeads your ability to do something.
Does this also occur in flying? Can certain ethnic groups handle high G's better? Do they have better spatial or attitude awareness?
It is well documented that there are physical differences between different ethnic groups. Including physical performance.
Caucasian people in general have proved to be better at water sports (slympic swimming etc)
Black people are better sprinters (due to I think, bone structure and a higher percentage of white blood cells that give an immediate release of oxygen to the muscles).
There are many areas where ethnic background helps or impeads your ability to do something.
Does this also occur in flying? Can certain ethnic groups handle high G's better? Do they have better spatial or attitude awareness?
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GMPG
White people have proven better at swimming, have they? Might it not be that access to decent swimming facilities is easier in the developed world than in the predominantly black Third World?
What is different about "bone structure" between white people and black people? We all have the same skeletal structure, actually. Maybe you're referring to bone density?
White blood cells don't carry oxygen.
Why concentrate on differences? "They" are the same as "us". If someone's up to the task s/he should get the job, without worrying about ethnicity.
White people have proven better at swimming, have they? Might it not be that access to decent swimming facilities is easier in the developed world than in the predominantly black Third World?
What is different about "bone structure" between white people and black people? We all have the same skeletal structure, actually. Maybe you're referring to bone density?
a higher percentage of white blood cells that give an immediate release of oxygen to the muscles
Why concentrate on differences? "They" are the same as "us". If someone's up to the task s/he should get the job, without worrying about ethnicity.
Last edited by tablet_eraser; 30th Oct 2006 at 19:55.
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I'll give you this as a fascinating but useless info morsel: About 10% of the Fijians recruited into the Army in the 60s made Warrant Officer, which is about 10 times the normal rate. They also were massively over-represented at Hereford. Their skills and sense of humour are legendary.
Why might that be?
Why might that be?
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i did think about this post before hitting submit as I knew that the subject would bring out the usual ignorant little turds waiving their copies of the guardian and shouting 'Racism'. If you don't have anything to add other than finger pointing then please sod off and make some sandals.
I did not say that Black people can't swim you moron, however how many black people are there doing good times in international swimming? Very few.
My only mistake was as you pointed out referring to bone structure and not density.
On the other hand caucasians arent that renowned for sprinting in todays modern atheletics are they?
For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.
It seems to be the different proportions of white muscle fibres and red.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200009180009
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php
Any more cretins want to poor out of the woodwork and accuse me of being racist?
I did not say that Black people can't swim you moron, however how many black people are there doing good times in international swimming? Very few.
My only mistake was as you pointed out referring to bone structure and not density.
On the other hand caucasians arent that renowned for sprinting in todays modern atheletics are they?
For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.
It seems to be the different proportions of white muscle fibres and red.
http://www.newstatesman.com/200009180009
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p2.php
Any more cretins want to poor out of the woodwork and accuse me of being racist?
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Actually GPMG I think you have a point. East Africans are known for long distance running and West Africans for sprinting - can't just be coincidence there must be something in the physiology.
As for whether this translates to flying .... the only thing on this issue I recall from aviation med is something called Sickle Cell Anaemia which has an advesre impact (something to do with the amount of O2 in the hemi goblin stuff IIRC) but is prevelant in people of Mediterranean and African origin. Can't for the life of me remember what the impact was though!
Now I think it is reasonably well accepted that short chaps and chapesses have greater g tolerance so if you can find a race of short stature who can carry masses of O2 in their blood you might just answer your own question.
There's a thesis in this for one of those doctor types.
As for whether this translates to flying .... the only thing on this issue I recall from aviation med is something called Sickle Cell Anaemia which has an advesre impact (something to do with the amount of O2 in the hemi goblin stuff IIRC) but is prevelant in people of Mediterranean and African origin. Can't for the life of me remember what the impact was though!
Now I think it is reasonably well accepted that short chaps and chapesses have greater g tolerance so if you can find a race of short stature who can carry masses of O2 in their blood you might just answer your own question.
There's a thesis in this for one of those doctor types.
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I'll give you this as a fascinating but useless info morsel: About 10% of the Fijians recruited into the Army in the 60s made Warrant Officer, which is about 10 times the normal rate. They also were massively over-represented at Hereford. Their skills and sense of humour are legendary.
Why might that be?
Why might that be?
The second part may be more difficult to reason but I'm sure that a sense of duty, respect and conscientiousness will be in there somewhere - something that is not easy to find in our culture.
As for the main thread, I'm not sure about enthnic differences but there are certainly cultural differences as anyone who has flown with a pilot from the Middle East will know!
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I think GPMG was asking a genuine question but its to be expected in this day and age that it will take half a dozen posts to get past the 'lets check you're not being a racist' B
ks.
Anyway, my two Penn'orth is this:
In the 80's the middle eastern foreign forces we trained to fly had to do the initial goundschool 6 weeks twice. (they were back-coursed in order to achieve this) Then, when they started flying, double the time was allocated to each exercise. This occurred regardless of their exam scores or flying ability.
I dont know if this is still the case but I'm sure someone on here will.
Now, I dont know if the RAF had some empirical evidence to suggest this was necessary, or whether it was a way to get paid twice for the one course
or what it was but that is what happened.
Regards
Xraf
ks.Anyway, my two Penn'orth is this:
In the 80's the middle eastern foreign forces we trained to fly had to do the initial goundschool 6 weeks twice. (they were back-coursed in order to achieve this) Then, when they started flying, double the time was allocated to each exercise. This occurred regardless of their exam scores or flying ability.
I dont know if this is still the case but I'm sure someone on here will.
Now, I dont know if the RAF had some empirical evidence to suggest this was necessary, or whether it was a way to get paid twice for the one course
or what it was but that is what happened.Regards
Xraf
xraf
Or maybe they were finding it difficult to learn using a foreign language?
If you had to do your courses in Arabic, maybe you would need double time. Don't forget, some of the students only learn the language just prior to starting training. In that case, maybe they are far cleverer than us as they pick it up quickly. Not sure we would be so good.
I think one of the not so often spoken about aspects of slavery in the USA was the use of selective breeding amongst the slaves to produce bigger, stronger workers.
If you had to do your courses in Arabic, maybe you would need double time. Don't forget, some of the students only learn the language just prior to starting training. In that case, maybe they are far cleverer than us as they pick it up quickly. Not sure we would be so good.
I think one of the not so often spoken about aspects of slavery in the USA was the use of selective breeding amongst the slaves to produce bigger, stronger workers.
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I've found my Irish ethnicity has impeded my flying 
Some people will start to suggest that men and women are the same?
Cheers
Whirls
Some people will start to suggest that men and women are the same?
Cheers
Whirls
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Ethnic differences,eh? Oh, yes.
Ex-Lightning mate of mine swears he was the originator of the oft-repeated anecdote re. training Saudi pilots on T55's:-
Saudi trainee, having made a total b*lls of his approach profile: "The stick is in the hands of Allah!"
Mate: "Bu**er Allah, I have control!"
Saudi trainee, having made a total b*lls of his approach profile: "The stick is in the hands of Allah!"
Mate: "Bu**er Allah, I have control!"
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I personally think this could be a really interesting thread, but as usual the famous PPRuNe naysayers have to shoot someone down purely for the sake of it. This particular forum seems to suffer from a strange sort of malaise whereby anyone making a point or asking a question automatically attracts critisicm from some of the small minded Daily Mail reading idiots.
It was a fair question. I for one have no idea of the answers to it, but I'm sure as hell interested in hearing the views of those who do. Let the man speak for God's sake.
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i did think about this post before hitting submit as I knew that the subject would bring out the usual ignorant little turds waiving their copies of the guardian and shouting 'Racism'. If you don't have anything to add other than finger pointing then please sod off and make some sandals.
....
For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.
....
For christs sake get of of your soap box and re read my original post, you'll find there is no racist undertone although people like you look for an 'ism in everything.
As I understand it the Ethiopians are particularly well adapted to distance running partly because they are naturally tall and wiry, and used to hot and high conditions, where in the west of Africa people tend to have larger leg and backside muscles, which give capacity for sprinting.
Caucasians don't usually fall into either category but I really don't have any idea why that might make them better swimmers.
Supposedly people from the Arabian peninsular are naturally good at navigating without recourse to instruments, though that sounds much like the stuff of legend rather than logic to me.
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I was told by someone who went out to train pilots on VC10 for the old EAA that he had noticed that while European/caucasian trainees might screw up emergency procedures through over-hasty reaction (grabbing at things too quickly), Africans he worked with were rather more likely to do the reverse, ie tending to freeze.(I think the shrinks call it 'over-arousal/under-arousal) No idea if any real relevance or not.
Ex-Lightning mate shortened by leaving the ac vertically and at speed on a few occassions and went on to be the world's greatest authority on the Bulldog?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
There are minor variations across the human race but all fall across a bell curve. If you look at the far extremes you can find some cases where the fact that some ethnic groups tend to one end of the bell curve will produce an advantage, such as for olympic gold medallists.
If you recruited pilots from the extreme end of bell curve you would, perhaps, be able to find some minor differences, but you donīt, and I am not aware of any sport or war which has shown any specific flying skill where finding and selecting from the extreme was necessary. Pilots are chosen based on an ability skill set and to fall with the percentile physically to fit the cockpit. An equal number of candidates with comparable abilities can be found within any ethnic group. The rest is selection, education and training.
The same argument can be applied to male/female aptitudes. Women, across the curve, will on average have worse spatial awareness than men, but we can and do find and train female pilots. Does it mean you will always be able to find a man who is a better pilot than a woman? No, you are dealing in probabilities, there are always wild cards.
And you still wonīt be able to pinpoint the factor that, when you go to war, identifies the 2-3% who become the killers among the lambs...
If you recruited pilots from the extreme end of bell curve you would, perhaps, be able to find some minor differences, but you donīt, and I am not aware of any sport or war which has shown any specific flying skill where finding and selecting from the extreme was necessary. Pilots are chosen based on an ability skill set and to fall with the percentile physically to fit the cockpit. An equal number of candidates with comparable abilities can be found within any ethnic group. The rest is selection, education and training.
The same argument can be applied to male/female aptitudes. Women, across the curve, will on average have worse spatial awareness than men, but we can and do find and train female pilots. Does it mean you will always be able to find a man who is a better pilot than a woman? No, you are dealing in probabilities, there are always wild cards.
And you still wonīt be able to pinpoint the factor that, when you go to war, identifies the 2-3% who become the killers among the lambs...
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All the guys I met spoke virtually perfect English, were often schooled in the UK were well motivated to succeed and gave us a run for our money in the exam stakes. They generally came from well-off/upper class families but had to follow the protocol and 'double up' their training.
As QFIHawkman says stop searching for sinister stuff that isnt there.
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What rubbish! Condescending ill informed rubbish at that!
All the guys I met spoke virtually perfect English, were often schooled in the UK were well motivated to succeed and gave us a run for our money in the exam stakes. They generally came from well-off/upper class families but had to follow the protocol and 'double up' their training.
As QFIHawkman says stop searching for sinister stuff that isnt there.
All the guys I met spoke virtually perfect English, were often schooled in the UK were well motivated to succeed and gave us a run for our money in the exam stakes. They generally came from well-off/upper class families but had to follow the protocol and 'double up' their training.
As QFIHawkman says stop searching for sinister stuff that isnt there.
Gurkha boys arrived with us new boys who couldn't speak a word of English. The other Gurkah lads sat with them on the bus to and from school every day, talking to them in English and local dialect, as they read the Oxford English Dictionary from cover to cover.
By the end of the first term they spoke perfectly acceptable English and by the end of the first year, beat us at written grammar.
If they could do it, anyone can. Motivation is the key.