Nimrod Safety - post afghan tragedy
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Nimrod Safety - post afghan tragedy
From today's daily mail...
23 October 2006
NIMROD FLIGHTS 'ILLEGAL'
A WHISTLEBLOWER says RAF Nimrod spy planes were being flown illegally before last month's fatal crash in Afghanistan.
Fourteen men died - including Scottish Flight Sergeant Stephen Beattie, 42 - when the spy plane plunged to the ground.
But today the Record can reveal a highly experienced airman has made a series of damning allegations about RAF cutbacks, saying that some of the 35-year-old Nimrods took to the air with key systems not working.
He also claims short-staffed ground crews had to work round the clock to make the Nimrods airworthy and spare parts were cannibalised from other aircraft.
The airman said he resigned from the RAF last year, convinced he would have "blood on my hands" if he continued to serve under such overstretched conditions.
He told the Record: "The Ministry of Defence witnessed this plane falling out of the sky, with catastrophic results, yet they claim there is no big problem.
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"I was sickened when they refused to acknowledge the extent of the problem in light of this accident.
"If something isn't done and this is swept under the carpet, it's only a matter of time before there is a terrible repeat."
Twelve RAF technicians, a soldier and a Royal Marine were on board when the Nimrod crashed on September 2 - the largest single loss of British life since the war in Afghanistan started.
Flt Sgt Beattie's wife, Shona, has said he told her during the summer that he could not remember the last time he flew in a Nimrod "with all the parts working".
Now our source, a decorated senior technician and Iraq veteran whose identity the Record is concealing, reveals: lNimrods flying in the knowledge that all systems are not operational.
Three crews being slashed to two for vital operations.
Three-man weapon loading crews being cut to one.
Planes being operated with a critically low store of spare parts.
He added: "Stephen Beattie's wife was absolutely spot-on in what she said. These aircraft shouldn't be taking off in the condition they are in and with the staffing problems on the ground.
"The guys flying the planes may feel they are in tip-top condition but that may well not be the case because the ground crew is so short-staffed."
The source, who resigned from the RAF last year after completing two tours in Iraq, says many Nimrod flights were illegal, as ground crews had breached specific "air publications", actions that could result in courts martial.
And he told how some three-man weapon loading jobs are now being done by one man.
He also says key roles are being undertaken by two-shift rotations, rather than three as set down in regulations.
And the provision of spare parts is so shoddy that in order to keep one plane flying, the No2 plane in operations is routinely stripped to the extent that it can't be used.
The expert said that more and more Acceptable Deferred Faults - breaches of maintenance and preparation practice, deemed not to bring significant danger - are being signed all the time.
He said: "Before the plane takes off, the work has to be signed for.
"But there's no way that everything could be prepared the way it should be with the pressure staff were under.
"More and more ADFs were coming up and there's no way the planes were as safe as they should be."
Our source said that the initial staffing provision for the outbreak of the Iraq war in 2003 was "by the book".
He said: "Everything was as it was set out to be. There were three men designated to arm the Nimrods, with two men loading weapons and one supervising. "There were also three crews working on a shift rotation to kit the aircraft out prior to flying.
"After the war was won, the staffing cutbacks had to be seen to be believed.
"Our presence in Iraq was seen as an exercise rather than a war situation, and the attitude of the top brass reflected that.
"All of a sudden, senior officers were expecting one man to do the work of three and two crews were working round the clock to kit out the aircraft.
"This would mean men effectively being forced to work on their allocated rest times just to get the planes operational."
When he complained to his commanding officer in 2004 at RAF Kinloss in Moray - the main UK base for the Nimrods - about staffing conditions, the technician was told the situation was being reviewed.
He said: "I took this as a fob-off, as I didn't see evidence of anything happening at all.
"I said to family members at the time that planes would drop from the sky and this is what has happened.
"I feel sickened that problems over resources have probably cost the lives of these men.
"If an inquest subsequently isolates one officer and blames a human error for this, the MoD will have a convenient scapegoat but that won't be the end of it."
He added: "I loved the RAF, and I still do, but it is being run into the ground and the MoD needs to face up to this."
The technician previously worked on the very Nimrod that crashed - which had been in service since 1969 - and recognised Stephen Beattie as a former colleague.
He said: "Working on the Nimrods means you gain a certain affinity and I was really gutted when I heard what had happened."
In a statement last week, the MoD said that over the past two years, cash spent on Nimrod maintenance went up by 50 per cent to £3million per aircraft per year.
Air Vice-Marshal Ian McNicoll said at the time of the crash: "Indications are that the accident was caused by a technical failure but we must wait for the Board of Inquiry to report. The Nimrod MR2 has been a very successful aircraft, with an excellent safety record.
"It is maintained to the highest standards by dedicated RAF ground crews."
Defence sources reportedly indicated that an RAF Board of Inquiry had highlighted a fracture to a key pipeline inside the Nimrod, resulting in explosions, before the plane plummeted 20,000ft.
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
Mrs Beattie and their children, Bethany and Cameron, live in Forres, Moray, a few miles from where he was stationed at RAF Kinloss.
An MoD spokesman admitted that budgets had affected RAF operations but denied Nimrods are being flown illegally. He added: "It is true that we have undergone a difficult period because of financial constraints.
"No Nimrod flights are taking off illegally. We have made changes due to tightened resources but these have resulted in us working more efficiently.
"The crew member you refer to worked under different circumstances and with different resources. Before changes were introduced, we consulted widely with people in Kinloss.
"We are effectively managing to perform just as efficently on tighter resources."
In 1995, seven aircrew were killed when a Nimrod nosedived into Lake Ontario, Canada, in front of 150,000 spectators at an airshow.
The Nimrod crash last month was the military's worst air disaster since a Chinook helicopter crashed in Scotland in 1994, killing 29 people.
23 October 2006
NIMROD FLIGHTS 'ILLEGAL'
A WHISTLEBLOWER says RAF Nimrod spy planes were being flown illegally before last month's fatal crash in Afghanistan.
Fourteen men died - including Scottish Flight Sergeant Stephen Beattie, 42 - when the spy plane plunged to the ground.
But today the Record can reveal a highly experienced airman has made a series of damning allegations about RAF cutbacks, saying that some of the 35-year-old Nimrods took to the air with key systems not working.
He also claims short-staffed ground crews had to work round the clock to make the Nimrods airworthy and spare parts were cannibalised from other aircraft.
The airman said he resigned from the RAF last year, convinced he would have "blood on my hands" if he continued to serve under such overstretched conditions.
He told the Record: "The Ministry of Defence witnessed this plane falling out of the sky, with catastrophic results, yet they claim there is no big problem.
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"I was sickened when they refused to acknowledge the extent of the problem in light of this accident.
"If something isn't done and this is swept under the carpet, it's only a matter of time before there is a terrible repeat."
Twelve RAF technicians, a soldier and a Royal Marine were on board when the Nimrod crashed on September 2 - the largest single loss of British life since the war in Afghanistan started.
Flt Sgt Beattie's wife, Shona, has said he told her during the summer that he could not remember the last time he flew in a Nimrod "with all the parts working".
Now our source, a decorated senior technician and Iraq veteran whose identity the Record is concealing, reveals: lNimrods flying in the knowledge that all systems are not operational.
Three crews being slashed to two for vital operations.
Three-man weapon loading crews being cut to one.
Planes being operated with a critically low store of spare parts.
He added: "Stephen Beattie's wife was absolutely spot-on in what she said. These aircraft shouldn't be taking off in the condition they are in and with the staffing problems on the ground.
"The guys flying the planes may feel they are in tip-top condition but that may well not be the case because the ground crew is so short-staffed."
The source, who resigned from the RAF last year after completing two tours in Iraq, says many Nimrod flights were illegal, as ground crews had breached specific "air publications", actions that could result in courts martial.
And he told how some three-man weapon loading jobs are now being done by one man.
He also says key roles are being undertaken by two-shift rotations, rather than three as set down in regulations.
And the provision of spare parts is so shoddy that in order to keep one plane flying, the No2 plane in operations is routinely stripped to the extent that it can't be used.
The expert said that more and more Acceptable Deferred Faults - breaches of maintenance and preparation practice, deemed not to bring significant danger - are being signed all the time.
He said: "Before the plane takes off, the work has to be signed for.
"But there's no way that everything could be prepared the way it should be with the pressure staff were under.
"More and more ADFs were coming up and there's no way the planes were as safe as they should be."
Our source said that the initial staffing provision for the outbreak of the Iraq war in 2003 was "by the book".
He said: "Everything was as it was set out to be. There were three men designated to arm the Nimrods, with two men loading weapons and one supervising. "There were also three crews working on a shift rotation to kit the aircraft out prior to flying.
"After the war was won, the staffing cutbacks had to be seen to be believed.
"Our presence in Iraq was seen as an exercise rather than a war situation, and the attitude of the top brass reflected that.
"All of a sudden, senior officers were expecting one man to do the work of three and two crews were working round the clock to kit out the aircraft.
"This would mean men effectively being forced to work on their allocated rest times just to get the planes operational."
When he complained to his commanding officer in 2004 at RAF Kinloss in Moray - the main UK base for the Nimrods - about staffing conditions, the technician was told the situation was being reviewed.
He said: "I took this as a fob-off, as I didn't see evidence of anything happening at all.
"I said to family members at the time that planes would drop from the sky and this is what has happened.
"I feel sickened that problems over resources have probably cost the lives of these men.
"If an inquest subsequently isolates one officer and blames a human error for this, the MoD will have a convenient scapegoat but that won't be the end of it."
He added: "I loved the RAF, and I still do, but it is being run into the ground and the MoD needs to face up to this."
The technician previously worked on the very Nimrod that crashed - which had been in service since 1969 - and recognised Stephen Beattie as a former colleague.
He said: "Working on the Nimrods means you gain a certain affinity and I was really gutted when I heard what had happened."
In a statement last week, the MoD said that over the past two years, cash spent on Nimrod maintenance went up by 50 per cent to £3million per aircraft per year.
Air Vice-Marshal Ian McNicoll said at the time of the crash: "Indications are that the accident was caused by a technical failure but we must wait for the Board of Inquiry to report. The Nimrod MR2 has been a very successful aircraft, with an excellent safety record.
"It is maintained to the highest standards by dedicated RAF ground crews."
Defence sources reportedly indicated that an RAF Board of Inquiry had highlighted a fracture to a key pipeline inside the Nimrod, resulting in explosions, before the plane plummeted 20,000ft.
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
Mrs Beattie and their children, Bethany and Cameron, live in Forres, Moray, a few miles from where he was stationed at RAF Kinloss.
An MoD spokesman admitted that budgets had affected RAF operations but denied Nimrods are being flown illegally. He added: "It is true that we have undergone a difficult period because of financial constraints.
"No Nimrod flights are taking off illegally. We have made changes due to tightened resources but these have resulted in us working more efficiently.
"The crew member you refer to worked under different circumstances and with different resources. Before changes were introduced, we consulted widely with people in Kinloss.
"We are effectively managing to perform just as efficently on tighter resources."
In 1995, seven aircrew were killed when a Nimrod nosedived into Lake Ontario, Canada, in front of 150,000 spectators at an airshow.
The Nimrod crash last month was the military's worst air disaster since a Chinook helicopter crashed in Scotland in 1994, killing 29 people.
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I'm not that surprised, I think we're all familiar with the modern 'quart from a pint pot' Air Force. Spares are hard to come by, partly due to 'Just in time' procedures set up for UK MOBs that struggle to get out to the desert. I flew an ac out of Basra that was officially u/s but it couldn't be fixed - we couldn't get spares until it was declared so, & then it would have been 2 - 3 days off the flying programme waiting for parts to arrive from the UK. Tasks had to be flown so we just got on with it. I often feel that our 'can do' attitude is our worst enemy.
Don't know about anyone else, but the nationalistic overtone of this comment regarding a member of the crew of a British armed forces aircraft makes me feel a little uncomfortable:
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
All the crew members lived and worked in a part of the UK called Scotland. Perhaps I'm just over-sensitive?
Don't know about anyone else, but the nationalistic overtone of this comment regarding a member of the crew of a British armed forces aircraft makes me feel a little uncomfortable:
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
All the crew members lived and worked in a part of the UK called Scotland. Perhaps I'm just over-sensitive?
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Perhaps everyone should await the finalisation of the accident investigation. Though spares are in short supply, we all know that departure without working items is entirely appropriate if it meets minimum equipment requirements, and other systems are working appropriately.
I find the report rather opportunistic tosh from someone who did not work on the particular aircraft prior to the sortie in question.
I find the report rather opportunistic tosh from someone who did not work on the particular aircraft prior to the sortie in question.
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"We are effectively managing to perform just as efficently on tighter resources."
"just as efficiently" Does the person who said this walk around wearing ear defenders and a welding mask?
Gutted.
DS
"just as efficiently" Does the person who said this walk around wearing ear defenders and a welding mask?
Gutted.
DS
PRESS ANNOUNCEMENT 23 Oct 2006:
In a statement at today's press conference, an MoD spokesman provided an official answer to comments made in recent newspaper articles:
In a statement at today's press conference, an MoD spokesman provided an official answer to comments made in recent newspaper articles:
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It was just a matter of time before someone blew the whistle and came clean about the state the jets are in. Christ, they were in a bad enough state back in the late 80's and early 90's when I was at ISK, and I have no doubt that they havn't got better since.
Ken, I think you are right, we are (and will continue) to be our own worst enemy, having a 'can do' attitude. Unfortunately anything less is regarded as unacceptable today. I know a very good pilot/captain who was 'got rid of' for refusing to fly a night sortie because he had been unable to sleep during the day, due to noise from shelling, bulletts etc. He found himself on a very quick one-way ticket home. Shame on the Hierarchy for not standing by him.
Lucifer, I think we should wait for the BoI, but I don't agree that this is 'tosh' at all. I have a sad feeling that the guy is probably 100% correct!
Kind regards to all
TSM
Ken, I think you are right, we are (and will continue) to be our own worst enemy, having a 'can do' attitude. Unfortunately anything less is regarded as unacceptable today. I know a very good pilot/captain who was 'got rid of' for refusing to fly a night sortie because he had been unable to sleep during the day, due to noise from shelling, bulletts etc. He found himself on a very quick one-way ticket home. Shame on the Hierarchy for not standing by him.
Lucifer, I think we should wait for the BoI, but I don't agree that this is 'tosh' at all. I have a sad feeling that the guy is probably 100% correct!
Kind regards to all
TSM
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or does he mean that we are, in effect, performing efficiently.
He's either split an infinitive...
or he's just talking bollocks.
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"In a statement last week, the MoD said that over the past two years, cash spent on Nimrod maintenance went up by 50 per cent to £3million per aircraft per year."
Nice bit of MOD smoke and mirrors this claim. We have significantly reduced the number of aircraft available to the frontline over the last couple of years (not forgetting the disbandment of 206 Sqn and the majority of it's crews). However, the core costs have remained static, ergo they can 'claim' we are spending more on the maintenance of each aircraft when that is complete tosh!
Nice bit of MOD smoke and mirrors this claim. We have significantly reduced the number of aircraft available to the frontline over the last couple of years (not forgetting the disbandment of 206 Sqn and the majority of it's crews). However, the core costs have remained static, ergo they can 'claim' we are spending more on the maintenance of each aircraft when that is complete tosh!
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Increasing maintenance costs are a sign that the aircraft is reaching the end of its useful life.
I guess the're counting on the average reporter not knowing that.
I guess the're counting on the average reporter not knowing that.
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Don't know about anyone else, but the nationalistic overtone of this comment regarding a member of the crew of a British armed forces aircraft makes me feel a little uncomfortable:
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
All the crew members lived and worked in a part of the UK called Scotland. Perhaps I'm just over-sensitive?
Flt Sgt Beattie, who was born in Dundee and brought up in Perthshire, was the only Scot on board.
All the crew members lived and worked in a part of the UK called Scotland. Perhaps I'm just over-sensitive?
"Scotsman drowns at sea"
referring to the 5th officer, Will Murdoch. I think the other 1499 made it into a small footnote somewhere.
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Essential systems not working?? Be careful how you approach this matter and do not dilute a genuine problem with trivial 'padding'. In our nearly new 2001 police helicopter, we have got airborne (legally) with no camera, searchlight, microwave downlink and minimal police radios (2 of 3 broken). It was Mk1 eyeball all around. This is s**t, but not dangerous.
So if your Nimrods are going with large percentages of the avionics not working, this is a similar situation. We (and the airlines) use an CAA approved MEL (minimum equipment list) to say what can and what can't be broken, therefore dangerous. If you don't make the list, you don't fly. Do RAF big jets use an MEL?? Are you whistle blowers actually saying that the aircraft are launching with u/s engines/controls/self defence etc etc or are role equipment bits broken. I am on shift now with no ADF, GPS Euronav, an autopilot roll snag, no ANR (ahhhhh), one TV screen and the video recorder for incidents all deferred in the tech log. Not great, but still SAFE.
No matter what the pressure, you should not release a dangerous jet to the line, so how is this happening??
So if your Nimrods are going with large percentages of the avionics not working, this is a similar situation. We (and the airlines) use an CAA approved MEL (minimum equipment list) to say what can and what can't be broken, therefore dangerous. If you don't make the list, you don't fly. Do RAF big jets use an MEL?? Are you whistle blowers actually saying that the aircraft are launching with u/s engines/controls/self defence etc etc or are role equipment bits broken. I am on shift now with no ADF, GPS Euronav, an autopilot roll snag, no ANR (ahhhhh), one TV screen and the video recorder for incidents all deferred in the tech log. Not great, but still SAFE.
No matter what the pressure, you should not release a dangerous jet to the line, so how is this happening??
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An ADF is EXACTLY that - an ACCEPTABLE deferred fault. An UNACCEPTABLE fault would not be signed off as acceptable.
I know very little about the 'Mighty Hunter', but I do know that it usually takes a few minutes to brief all the ADFs / Lims / Reds / Greens we have to carry on Albert - that's if the airframe is serviceable at all, which they hardly are nowadays. (We don't even have enough lineys to run ANY shifts at weekends at the moment - so if you break an aircraft on a Friday, it won't be on the programme on Mon!)
We carry ADFs all the time, and have done for a long time.
I know very little about the 'Mighty Hunter', but I do know that it usually takes a few minutes to brief all the ADFs / Lims / Reds / Greens we have to carry on Albert - that's if the airframe is serviceable at all, which they hardly are nowadays. (We don't even have enough lineys to run ANY shifts at weekends at the moment - so if you break an aircraft on a Friday, it won't be on the programme on Mon!)
We carry ADFs all the time, and have done for a long time.
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I do hope that no one is particularly surprised by the idea of flying with u/s kit on the aircraft. With operational tempo, lean and the shear time it takes to deliver spares(that are often u/s on fit!) 'just too late',
the only sensible option left is to have a hangar queen that at least you know the bit of kit you grab off it was servicable!!!!
the only sensible option left is to have a hangar queen that at least you know the bit of kit you grab off it was servicable!!!!
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Now, I'm not in the business of pre-judging the BOI, and am one for paying attention to safety, but I find some of this sensationalism to the nth degree; my coments preceded by >:
But today the Record can reveal a highly experienced airman has made a series of damning allegations about RAF cutbacks, saying that some of the 35-year-old Nimrods took to the air with key systems not working.
> Nothing new for any aircraft there then, it just depends on what is meant by 'key systems'. There is a huge difference between Mission Critical and Safety Critical.
Twelve RAF technicians, a soldier and a Royal Marine were on board when the Nimrod crashed on September 2 - the largest single loss of British life since the war in Afghanistan started.
> Ignorance of facts.
Flt Sgt Beattie's wife, Shona, has said he told her during the summer that he could not remember the last time he flew in a Nimrod "with all the parts working".
> As above, nothing new there then.
Planes being operated with a critically low store of spare parts.
> As long as there are sufficient spares, safety won't be an issue. Effectiveness maybe.
The source, who resigned from the RAF last year after completing two tours in Iraq, says many Nimrod flights were illegal, as ground crews had breached specific "air publications", actions that could result in courts martial.
> So, he participated or condoned illegal actions then, waiting until he was out before blowing the whistle?
He also says key roles are being undertaken by two-shift rotations, rather than three as set down in regulations.
> Not sure what this is getting at - regulations don't dictate how long a job takes.
And the provision of spare parts is so shoddy that in order to keep one plane flying, the No2 plane in operations is routinely stripped to the extent that it can't be used.
> Nothing new there then, but again, not an explicit threat to safety
The expert said that more and more Acceptable Deferred Faults - breaches of maintenance and preparation practice, deemed not to bring significant danger - are being signed all the time.
> ADFs are not breaches of maintenance and preparation, they are as the name suggests Faults that can be acceptably deferred until the next appropriate maintenance opportunity.
He said: "Before the plane takes off, the work has to be signed for.
"But there's no way that everything could be prepared the way it should be with the pressure staff were under.
> If the F700 isn't cleared, then the jet isn't serviceable and the captain can't sign for it.
He said: "Everything was as it was set out to be. There were three men designated to arm the Nimrods, with two men loading weapons and one supervising. "There were also three crews working on a shift rotation to kit the aircraft out prior to flying.
> In my experience, if ever there was a bunch of people who were absolute sticklers to detail and procedure, it was the armourers.
sw
But today the Record can reveal a highly experienced airman has made a series of damning allegations about RAF cutbacks, saying that some of the 35-year-old Nimrods took to the air with key systems not working.
> Nothing new for any aircraft there then, it just depends on what is meant by 'key systems'. There is a huge difference between Mission Critical and Safety Critical.
Twelve RAF technicians, a soldier and a Royal Marine were on board when the Nimrod crashed on September 2 - the largest single loss of British life since the war in Afghanistan started.
> Ignorance of facts.
Flt Sgt Beattie's wife, Shona, has said he told her during the summer that he could not remember the last time he flew in a Nimrod "with all the parts working".
> As above, nothing new there then.
Planes being operated with a critically low store of spare parts.
> As long as there are sufficient spares, safety won't be an issue. Effectiveness maybe.
The source, who resigned from the RAF last year after completing two tours in Iraq, says many Nimrod flights were illegal, as ground crews had breached specific "air publications", actions that could result in courts martial.
> So, he participated or condoned illegal actions then, waiting until he was out before blowing the whistle?
He also says key roles are being undertaken by two-shift rotations, rather than three as set down in regulations.
> Not sure what this is getting at - regulations don't dictate how long a job takes.
And the provision of spare parts is so shoddy that in order to keep one plane flying, the No2 plane in operations is routinely stripped to the extent that it can't be used.
> Nothing new there then, but again, not an explicit threat to safety
The expert said that more and more Acceptable Deferred Faults - breaches of maintenance and preparation practice, deemed not to bring significant danger - are being signed all the time.
> ADFs are not breaches of maintenance and preparation, they are as the name suggests Faults that can be acceptably deferred until the next appropriate maintenance opportunity.
He said: "Before the plane takes off, the work has to be signed for.
"But there's no way that everything could be prepared the way it should be with the pressure staff were under.
> If the F700 isn't cleared, then the jet isn't serviceable and the captain can't sign for it.
He said: "Everything was as it was set out to be. There were three men designated to arm the Nimrods, with two men loading weapons and one supervising. "There were also three crews working on a shift rotation to kit the aircraft out prior to flying.
> In my experience, if ever there was a bunch of people who were absolute sticklers to detail and procedure, it was the armourers.
sw
Last edited by Safeware; 23rd Oct 2006 at 19:26. Reason: spacing
Certainly carried Acceptable Deferred Defects on Lynx, without wishing to blurt it out to the world.
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ADF is an avionics thingy, it tunes in to NDBs. Inquisitor, that is exactly my point, if we complain and say that Nimrods never get airborne fully serviceable and then quote these ACCEPTABLE faults, the bosses will never sit up and take notice. I call this diluting the important points with trivial ones. If they are getting airborne with non-acceptable faults, then people should speak up. They are not sneaks, this is their duty. If anyone says that you must do this because there is a war on, ask for the order in writing and see if they will put their head on the block. If it all goes wrong, people who say they will back you up will disappear into the shadows and you will be on your own. If blokes were under fire, taking hits and screaming for help, then you might be justified for going on 3 engines, otherwise don't sign it up.