SFO raids four premises in BAE contracts probe
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Mr Bernoulli, what a load of utter sh1t you've posted. What a completely stupid post - why have you bothered to waste both your time and the time of those who read this otherwise excellent forum?
You clearly have no idea what is needed to do any deal in Saudi Arabia, have you? The Saudis do not accept "3rd rate" products.
The sales to KSA have allowed the UK to participate/undertake in Eurofighter, Nimrod, Hawk 100/200 and JSF.
What would be YOUR solution to UK investment in aerospace?
You clearly have no idea what is needed to do any deal in Saudi Arabia, have you? The Saudis do not accept "3rd rate" products.
The sales to KSA have allowed the UK to participate/undertake in Eurofighter, Nimrod, Hawk 100/200 and JSF.
What would be YOUR solution to UK investment in aerospace?
Apart from soddim, backseatjock and now yourself there has been some utter cr@p posted on this subject by the usual bunch of ill informed prats who know less than nothing about BAe never mind business in the Middle East.
I fail to see WTF it has got to do with anyone on here IF and I repeat IF certain payments were made to whoever.
It must be great to sit on the moral high ground and spout total bo!!ocks.
Wasn't going to dignify this thread by posting but it's done now.
Last edited by Echo 5; 27th Nov 2006 at 18:07.
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Rumour machine within the industry suggests a Rafale deal is now very close to being signed - could be within the week.
Bad news for British industry generally, not just BAE, if this does happen. It is reported that some 50,000 could be affected throughout the UK supply base. Only around 5,000 - 6,000 of these at BAE.
Difficult one to judge, but after three years of investigation and not one charge being brought against anyone, you can understand the frustration apparently being shown by the Saudis and also senior BAE execs.
Having read much of the coverage during the weekend, it would seem one complaint is that our SFO is moving into areas in which it has no jurisdiction. If true, this must surely be stopped, unless the SFO can fully justify its actions by presenting hard evidenced facts and pressing charges.
BAE's public response may not be seen to amount to much, but I do have some sympathy. After all, this is a criminal investigation. Like anyone else facing the prospect of legal action, the company will have been advised to tread carefully in order not to prejudice any legal case. Against a backdrop of some very well briefed newspaper journalists, seemingly on one newspaper in particular, this can not be easy.
Tragic if the 72 aircraft order is lost to the French.
Bad news for British industry generally, not just BAE, if this does happen. It is reported that some 50,000 could be affected throughout the UK supply base. Only around 5,000 - 6,000 of these at BAE.
Difficult one to judge, but after three years of investigation and not one charge being brought against anyone, you can understand the frustration apparently being shown by the Saudis and also senior BAE execs.
Having read much of the coverage during the weekend, it would seem one complaint is that our SFO is moving into areas in which it has no jurisdiction. If true, this must surely be stopped, unless the SFO can fully justify its actions by presenting hard evidenced facts and pressing charges.
BAE's public response may not be seen to amount to much, but I do have some sympathy. After all, this is a criminal investigation. Like anyone else facing the prospect of legal action, the company will have been advised to tread carefully in order not to prejudice any legal case. Against a backdrop of some very well briefed newspaper journalists, seemingly on one newspaper in particular, this can not be easy.
Tragic if the 72 aircraft order is lost to the French.
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Nope - no sympathy at all for 't Bungling Baron if it is proved that he's been throwing bribes and 'facilitation incentives' around.
If there's no case to answer, then why are the Saudis so concerned?
Not quite blackmail to say "Drop your investigation - or we drop our order", but close.
The SFO is entirely right to continue its investigation into this business - and if that means the Saudis buy Rafale, then so be it. But that won't stop the investigation......
If there's no case to answer, then why are the Saudis so concerned?
Not quite blackmail to say "Drop your investigation - or we drop our order", but close.
The SFO is entirely right to continue its investigation into this business - and if that means the Saudis buy Rafale, then so be it. But that won't stop the investigation......
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Independent: French poised to steal £10bn Saudi contract from BAE
Fears are mounting that Saudi Arabia is about to cancel a £10bn deal to buy British-built Eurofighter Typhoon jets and purchase a rival French aircraft instead because of a long-running fraud inquiry into its relationship with BAE Systems. Sources close to the negotiations say that the Saudis could decide to order between 24 and 36 Rafale fighters from Dassault, of France, in the next few days.....
"This isn't sabre-rattling any longer. The sabre is out of its scabbard and is being brandished over our heads," one UK defence source said. "The Saudis are serious about switching to the French and it could happen in the next 24 to 48 hours.".......
The British ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Sherrard Cowper-Coles, is understood to have been working frantically to save the deal. He met the Saudi defence minister, Crown Prince Sultan, over the weekend.......
Fears are mounting that Saudi Arabia is about to cancel a £10bn deal to buy British-built Eurofighter Typhoon jets and purchase a rival French aircraft instead because of a long-running fraud inquiry into its relationship with BAE Systems. Sources close to the negotiations say that the Saudis could decide to order between 24 and 36 Rafale fighters from Dassault, of France, in the next few days.....
"This isn't sabre-rattling any longer. The sabre is out of its scabbard and is being brandished over our heads," one UK defence source said. "The Saudis are serious about switching to the French and it could happen in the next 24 to 48 hours.".......
The British ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Sherrard Cowper-Coles, is understood to have been working frantically to save the deal. He met the Saudi defence minister, Crown Prince Sultan, over the weekend.......
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From soddim
BEagle
I sort of enjoyed your previous jibes at BAE SYSTEMS and 't tales of Bungling Baron but, given soddim's accurate observation (not to mention the real threat to thousands of retired employees' pensions, including mine), I cannot understand the tone in your last post. It is hard to fathom your apparent enthusiasm over the prospect of so many of your fellow countrymens' livelihoods being at risk.
The real Saudi threat is that they will suspend the BAE deal, which is supposed to be valued at about 40 billion pounds (about $76 billion). If that were to happen, it would be a huge blow to BAE and to the British economy. BAE certainly needs this deal; it would be overstating it to say that Britain needs this deal, but not by much. If the Saudis canceled, it would cost thousands of jobs and force a restructuring of the British defense industries. It also would make some other country -- probably the United States -- very happy, when the project is transferred.
I sort of enjoyed your previous jibes at BAE SYSTEMS and 't tales of Bungling Baron but, given soddim's accurate observation (not to mention the real threat to thousands of retired employees' pensions, including mine), I cannot understand the tone in your last post. It is hard to fathom your apparent enthusiasm over the prospect of so many of your fellow countrymens' livelihoods being at risk.
jinda', IF 't Bungling Baron has been "Givin' a little sweetenerr orr two to 't brown lads from 't desert" to help secure this sale then, sorry, but he becomes 't BENT Baron and I hope it won't affect your pension if 't TypHoon deal falls through.
Again, if there is nothing to this, then why are the Saudis so worried? Methinks they doeth protest too much?
I inherited some shares from a late aunt. First ones I got shot of were the BWoS shares.
Again, if there is nothing to this, then why are the Saudis so worried? Methinks they doeth protest too much?
I inherited some shares from a late aunt. First ones I got shot of were the BWoS shares.
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[QUOTE=
I inherited some shares from a late aunt. First ones I got shot of were the BWoS shares.[/QUOTE]
BEagle,
You're repeating yourself now but I hope you got a good price for them.
I inherited some shares from a late aunt. First ones I got shot of were the BWoS shares.[/QUOTE]
BEagle,
You're repeating yourself now but I hope you got a good price for them.
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Whether or not anyone from BAE Sys needs, in due course, to prove their innocence, the Saudi Arabian withdrawal will put a significant dent in the British aviation and defence business. It is worthwhile remembering that this is one of the few manufacturing sectors we have left, let alone its contribution to our balance of payments (not that anyone seems to care about that anymore). The Guardian, who seem to have been stoking this quite nicely, will have achieved a political aim of the old fashioned Liberals and Socialists. There are probably hordes of similar thinking individuals embedded in the Civil Service and other Public appointments who will grasp at the chance to damage our international arms trade. Would you say this matter has been allowed a significant level of leakage to the Media?
As I flippantly tried to say in Srl 2, there are some countries that expect "gifts" as part of any trade deal. We either trade with them on their terms or not at all. There are always others that will unless the custom is made illegal in international law. Soddim makes that point well at Srl 15. It's the way Arabs do business and to them it's not immoral. It's an exchange of gifts; as lame as that may sound to our democratic Western, dare I say "Christian", ears. So if it's alright by them, why has the SFO investigations made them spit the dummy? We have implied that they are "criminals" and corrupt in Western eyes. Behind their back, their private affairs have been "violated" (eg poking around in a private bank account). That is no doubt the way they will see it. Arabs, whatever else one thinks of them, are proud and sensitive. We all remember the fuss over ITV broadcasting "Death of a Princess", don't we? On that occasion it cost UK PLC money as well.
It's interesting to note the responses this matter has provoked. In the tree hugging fraternity outside this Forum, seeming joy that Britain's arms trade has been damaged and our place in the World, however slightly, diminished. No doubt there will be similar glee from our foreign competitors who will now know to be more careful how they make gifts. Within the Forum, we see similar joy from the prospect of BAE Sys getting a good kicking. well, BAE Sys have severely p**sed me off many times in the past and will, no doubt, many times in the future but, like it or not, it's the only big player we've got. Whatever damages them damages all their suppliers, sub-contractors and, in turn, the rest of our consumer economy that feeds off them.
Human nature makes me say that I hope that the SFO draws an inconclusive blank and that BAE Sys sues the a**se off the Government. That's not very bright, though, as it's a classic home goal and each and every one of us will eventually pay for it.
As I flippantly tried to say in Srl 2, there are some countries that expect "gifts" as part of any trade deal. We either trade with them on their terms or not at all. There are always others that will unless the custom is made illegal in international law. Soddim makes that point well at Srl 15. It's the way Arabs do business and to them it's not immoral. It's an exchange of gifts; as lame as that may sound to our democratic Western, dare I say "Christian", ears. So if it's alright by them, why has the SFO investigations made them spit the dummy? We have implied that they are "criminals" and corrupt in Western eyes. Behind their back, their private affairs have been "violated" (eg poking around in a private bank account). That is no doubt the way they will see it. Arabs, whatever else one thinks of them, are proud and sensitive. We all remember the fuss over ITV broadcasting "Death of a Princess", don't we? On that occasion it cost UK PLC money as well.
It's interesting to note the responses this matter has provoked. In the tree hugging fraternity outside this Forum, seeming joy that Britain's arms trade has been damaged and our place in the World, however slightly, diminished. No doubt there will be similar glee from our foreign competitors who will now know to be more careful how they make gifts. Within the Forum, we see similar joy from the prospect of BAE Sys getting a good kicking. well, BAE Sys have severely p**sed me off many times in the past and will, no doubt, many times in the future but, like it or not, it's the only big player we've got. Whatever damages them damages all their suppliers, sub-contractors and, in turn, the rest of our consumer economy that feeds off them.
Human nature makes me say that I hope that the SFO draws an inconclusive blank and that BAE Sys sues the a**se off the Government. That's not very bright, though, as it's a classic home goal and each and every one of us will eventually pay for it.
Take a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...04/money.shtml from BBC2's The Money Programme of a couple of years ago......
Now understand why certain people are getting nervous.
Edited to add: No idea how much my shares in BWoS went for - just wanted rid of them!
Now understand why certain people are getting nervous.
Edited to add: No idea how much my shares in BWoS went for - just wanted rid of them!
Last edited by BEagle; 28th Nov 2006 at 15:48.
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While I read that, have a look why I think the liberal thinkers out there have found a chance to damage our position, http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists...958579,00.html
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Golf_ Bravo_ Zulu makes an important point. The loss of such a large Typhoon order will ripple much further than BAE Systems' factory gates in terms of its impact on employment.
What about the effect it will have on other equally important British engineering companies, including Rolls Royce, Smiths and others.
It is clear that a significant hole has been made in BAE's stock market value in the past couple of days, reportedly as a direct result of this issue and yet none of the allegations made by The Guardian or SFO have yet been backed up by hard evidenced facts or charges against individuals, let alone the Company.
That can't be right.
BAE's CEO is quoted as saying that after three years of this investigation the SFO should either 'put up or shut up'. If there is hard evidence of corruption or impropriety, involving BAE or any of its employees, the SFO should present it. I don't think many would disagree with that.
Conversely, if there is no hard evidence to support what are currently unsubstantiated allegations, surely it is time this one was put to bed.
What about the effect it will have on other equally important British engineering companies, including Rolls Royce, Smiths and others.
It is clear that a significant hole has been made in BAE's stock market value in the past couple of days, reportedly as a direct result of this issue and yet none of the allegations made by The Guardian or SFO have yet been backed up by hard evidenced facts or charges against individuals, let alone the Company.
That can't be right.
BAE's CEO is quoted as saying that after three years of this investigation the SFO should either 'put up or shut up'. If there is hard evidence of corruption or impropriety, involving BAE or any of its employees, the SFO should present it. I don't think many would disagree with that.
Conversely, if there is no hard evidence to support what are currently unsubstantiated allegations, surely it is time this one was put to bed.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Times: Saudi Arabia plays down threat to end talks on BAE deal
Saudi Arabian sources yesterday played down talk of a rift with BAE Systems, after speculation that the Kingdom was about to ditch plans to spend £10 billion on British-made fighter jets in favour of rival French aircraft. A senior Saudi source insisted that the country was committed to its 30-year relationship with Europe’s largest defence company, but admitted that talks over the purchase of 72 Eurofighter Typhoon jets had been “delayed”.
“This isn’t a crisis situation, nothing’s been cancelled,” the source said. “There are just some issues that need to be sorted out before things can proceed.” .........
The Saudi source said that there was no intention of issuing any kind of threat to BAE or Britain. “This stirring is being driven from London,” he said....
Saudi Arabian sources yesterday played down talk of a rift with BAE Systems, after speculation that the Kingdom was about to ditch plans to spend £10 billion on British-made fighter jets in favour of rival French aircraft. A senior Saudi source insisted that the country was committed to its 30-year relationship with Europe’s largest defence company, but admitted that talks over the purchase of 72 Eurofighter Typhoon jets had been “delayed”.
“This isn’t a crisis situation, nothing’s been cancelled,” the source said. “There are just some issues that need to be sorted out before things can proceed.” .........
The Saudi source said that there was no intention of issuing any kind of threat to BAE or Britain. “This stirring is being driven from London,” he said....
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It seems to me that the SFO simply has a MrBernoulli or a BEagle in charge, i.e. a "I hate BAE and will do anything to have ---- over."
Oh and MrBernoulli and BEagle. if you are so keen to see British industry and employment damaged in a significant manner then please do me a favour. Take yourself to the nearest airport, buy a one way ticket and get the ---- out of this country. We don't need your sort here. Scum.
(If BAE wasn't here, where would all the RAF go when they leave?)
Oh and MrBernoulli and BEagle. if you are so keen to see British industry and employment damaged in a significant manner then please do me a favour. Take yourself to the nearest airport, buy a one way ticket and get the ---- out of this country. We don't need your sort here. Scum.
(If BAE wasn't here, where would all the RAF go when they leave?)
Last edited by PPRuNe Pop; 29th Nov 2006 at 08:04. Reason: Swearing
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Question?
If the Saud's dont take the Typhoons, then does that mean that the RAF WILL HAVE to take them, thereby a double wammy for the British tax payer?
I am so glad that the politico's have the well being of this nation as their prime concern, after paying back their loans of course!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so glad that the politico's have the well being of this nation as their prime concern, after paying back their loans of course!!!!!!!!!!!
It seems to me that the SFO simply has a MrBernoulli or a BEagle in charge, i.e. a "I hate BAE and will do anything to have ---- over."
Oh and MrBernoulli and BEagle. if you are so keen to see British industry and employment damaged in a significant manner then please do me a favour. Take yourself to the nearest airport, buy a one way ticket and get the ---- out of this country. We don't need your sort here. Scum.
(If BAE wasn't here, where would all the RAF go when they leave?)
Oh and MrBernoulli and BEagle. if you are so keen to see British industry and employment damaged in a significant manner then please do me a favour. Take yourself to the nearest airport, buy a one way ticket and get the ---- out of this country. We don't need your sort here. Scum.
(If BAE wasn't here, where would all the RAF go when they leave?)
While I hope that no-one loses their jobs, and that we don't lose any contracts, I do hope that the Police investigation is complete and proper. If people are breaking the law then they need to be dealt with. If we are to start allowing - or even supporting - selective application of the law, then where do you draw the line? How many jobs cannot be risked in order for the Police to investigate possible wrongdoings? The implications of such an approach don't even bear thinking about.
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Secret payments of millions of pounds found
Secret payments of millions of pounds from Britain's biggest arms company have been found in Swiss accounts linked to Wafic Said, a billionaire arms broker for the Saudi Royal family, according to legal sources.
http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http:...l.h2f?id=12116
http://www.modoracle.com/?page=http:...l.h2f?id=12116
eal401, awfully sorry if the old-fashioned concepts of civilised business practices, integrity, honesty and justice upset your Thatcher-greed mentality.
I take the pi$$ out of much of 't Bungling Baron's rank incompetence, but do NOT 'hate' any one organisation per se. I do, however, detest corruption, greed and lying - I sincerely hope that BWoS will prove themselves totally innocent of the allegations which have been reported in the press....
TypHoon must sell itself on merit. It deserves to - it's an extremely capable jet.
I take the pi$$ out of much of 't Bungling Baron's rank incompetence, but do NOT 'hate' any one organisation per se. I do, however, detest corruption, greed and lying - I sincerely hope that BWoS will prove themselves totally innocent of the allegations which have been reported in the press....
TypHoon must sell itself on merit. It deserves to - it's an extremely capable jet.
Last edited by BEagle; 29th Nov 2006 at 19:23.