Underated Trades?
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At the moment, given the operational environments, I would suggest that promoting teamwork is a more appropriate theme than knocking each others' trades/specialisations.
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As for the pre-positioning thing, thats cods. Many techies, suppliers etc have their class 1 and 2 driving licences and under civilian law can quite happily jump into the relevant vehicle types and drive them. In the RAF we have 'A class' and 'B class' drivers, or jobs for the boys as its known.
One is working hours. True your duty driver quote seemed along this line. My point is that Man A can do a productive period of duty in his trade and Man B, the MT Driver, can extend Man As efforts by acting as chauffer when Man A has finished his work AND is out of duty driving hours.
As for pre-positioning, if you as Man A are at your work place and need to get to your Billet some distance away you could drive. You could only drive if there was a vehicle there. MT can deliver that vehicle, ferry you there, and return you or whoever, without that vehicle sitting in your car park unused.
The latter point was part of MAVER and had long been a gripe about sqn cdrs vehicles doing only a couple of miles per day. A functioning base taxi service might have meant you waiting a few minutes but was a far superior use of scarce resources. It did need a strong MT Controller however who could delay the shift bus if it was needed for crew transport to deliver a crew or pax to an aircraft.
...so, when all of your remaining techies and stackers are driving all those poor "out-of-hours" crews home, and getting spares, and getting tools, and getting meals, and getting fit, and guarding the place - who will fix all the things they left behind on the pan? When do they get their "out-of-hours" - after their Secondary Fitness/Guard/Cook?
Maybe the ATCOs can do it? - if they aren't all civvies too (No-ones mentioned them yet).
also... I've never seen "out-of hours" crews prevented from driving their own cars home?
...an' anuvver fing!...Who needs all dem pilots wiv all these UAV's, CRT's and UFO's? A new "Few" sat in a big cumfy hole in the ground will do the job!
Maybe the ATCOs can do it? - if they aren't all civvies too (No-ones mentioned them yet).
also... I've never seen "out-of hours" crews prevented from driving their own cars home?
...an' anuvver fing!...Who needs all dem pilots wiv all these UAV's, CRT's and UFO's? A new "Few" sat in a big cumfy hole in the ground will do the job!
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Oooeerr Missus!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Not wishing to show my age but I never quite saw getting a Sherpa van out of the MT as an example of "Effects Based Operations", ...who knew?
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All very true stacker. Sustainment of military operations is most effective when MT is highly flexible rather than highly optimized. Negotiations for MT resources and capabilities should be encouraged to support rapidly evolving tasks and effects-based operations. Transportation of support staff should be independent from geography constraints where possible.
Yes.
One of the most important things we learnt was that Cohesive, adaptable, and responsive MT requires sophisticated vehicle support that enables passenger sharing, a common perspective of the task, early awareness of resource consumption and needs, commitment to pick up the crew, and support for that crew in need.
One of the most important things we learnt was that Cohesive, adaptable, and responsive MT requires sophisticated vehicle support that enables passenger sharing, a common perspective of the task, early awareness of resource consumption and needs, commitment to pick up the crew, and support for that crew in need.
MT demand is ultimately unpredictable. So assumimg that demand is ultimately unpredictable, success depends on the speed of request recognition and speed of response. So perhaps the decision to transport Aircrew necessary to meet operational tasks, and to predict and anticipate MT operations, combined with the strategic, operational, and tactical situation, and the need to generate and evaluate MT, will come down to the ATCO one day.
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If downsizing is required to meet budget limitaions how would employing civvies help in any significant way?
It is apparent to many of us (civvies) that our services are under resourced. Many of us are also aware that this both risks and costs lives unneccessarily.
We are also aware that this undermines your primary role, that of preserving our nation state.
Perhaps there is a dawning of realization with regard to these facts in our green and pleasant lands. Whatever - the baby should never be thrown out with the bath water.
Sorry to intrude on what is. after all. your forum but not all of us read the Guardian, are pro Blare and pacifist. Many of us know what we owe you and obey the still on the eleventh hour.
I no longer drive but in fourty five years of doing so never passed a uniform on the roadside with an upraised thumb. It was how I was brought up by my father who flew Wellingtons (Per Noctem Volamus) as an observer in '40 and '41.
Feel free to tell me to "sling me 'ook".
It is apparent to many of us (civvies) that our services are under resourced. Many of us are also aware that this both risks and costs lives unneccessarily.
We are also aware that this undermines your primary role, that of preserving our nation state.
Perhaps there is a dawning of realization with regard to these facts in our green and pleasant lands. Whatever - the baby should never be thrown out with the bath water.
Sorry to intrude on what is. after all. your forum but not all of us read the Guardian, are pro Blare and pacifist. Many of us know what we owe you and obey the still on the eleventh hour.
I no longer drive but in fourty five years of doing so never passed a uniform on the roadside with an upraised thumb. It was how I was brought up by my father who flew Wellingtons (Per Noctem Volamus) as an observer in '40 and '41.
Feel free to tell me to "sling me 'ook".
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That's as maybe cymru, but I fear that it's not the point of this (rather silly) thread.
The muppet who opened this was suggesting that certain RAF trades are expendable. "Get rid of them and get civvies in to do the job" was the gist of it.
To quote a couple of examples, he cited RAF Drivers, Policemen, Suppliers, PTIs etc etc.
Now show me a Civvy MT driver who will happily go to Basrah, on normal pay mind, to drive a tanker full of Avgas between bases. Show me an MOD copper who will go to Kabul (without the blessed overtime!) and escort vehicles to the Embassy down town. I could go on.....
But nobody was having a go at you civvies. You do a great job working for the MOD, there are even some who are reservists and go out to these areas as part time servicemen and I applaud you for that.
The point is, ALL of the RAF trades exist for a reason. If there were no need for them, they wouldn't be out there now slogging their balls off.
The person who started this thread (225 turbo), if he is a serving person, needs to have his head examined.
And there is no need to sling your hook cymru, tell it like it is. We're all entitled to an opinion, even me.
The muppet who opened this was suggesting that certain RAF trades are expendable. "Get rid of them and get civvies in to do the job" was the gist of it.
To quote a couple of examples, he cited RAF Drivers, Policemen, Suppliers, PTIs etc etc.
Now show me a Civvy MT driver who will happily go to Basrah, on normal pay mind, to drive a tanker full of Avgas between bases. Show me an MOD copper who will go to Kabul (without the blessed overtime!) and escort vehicles to the Embassy down town. I could go on.....
But nobody was having a go at you civvies. You do a great job working for the MOD, there are even some who are reservists and go out to these areas as part time servicemen and I applaud you for that.
The point is, ALL of the RAF trades exist for a reason. If there were no need for them, they wouldn't be out there now slogging their balls off.
The person who started this thread (225 turbo), if he is a serving person, needs to have his head examined.
And there is no need to sling your hook cymru, tell it like it is. We're all entitled to an opinion, even me.
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Well said
If you down size an organization the size of the RAF then you you down size it across all trades and branches rather than go for the "I think I'll lose some weight and chop off my left leg" approach. Brighter people than you and I who earn an awful lot of money get paid to work out how many people we need in order not to be overstretched in multiple theatres of operation all over the globe.
Obvious really, init
Note to self: Please employ brain power elsewhere in future...
If you down size an organization the size of the RAF then you you down size it across all trades and branches rather than go for the "I think I'll lose some weight and chop off my left leg" approach. Brighter people than you and I who earn an awful lot of money get paid to work out how many people we need in order not to be overstretched in multiple theatres of operation all over the globe.
Obvious really, init
Note to self: Please employ brain power elsewhere in future...
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Now show me a Civvy MT driver who will happily go to Basrah, on normal pay mind, to drive a tanker full of Avgas between bases.
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Actually the fuel tankers we were repeatedly escorting up to Al Amara from Basrah when I was out there were all civvy owned and operated (by charming Pakistani and Indian chaps who seemed completely blasé about the risk and would even eat the spare 'a/c chock' pasties from the butty bags). The one occasion when the service drivers had to fill in because of border problems it almost fell flat because of some jobs worth MTO quoting drivers hours.
I know that Pakistani drivers were driving the fuel loads from pakistan into Afghanistan by road. at the point of delivery however, it was RAF drivers loading the fuel into the A/C.
Do we get rid of RAF drivers? Would you rather the local Afghans do the fuel onloads? What sort of risk does that pose?
To quote "movadinkampa747"
"One of the most important things we learnt was that Cohesive, adaptable, and responsive MT requires sophisticated vehicle support that enables passenger sharing, a common perspective of the task, early awareness of resource consumption and needs, commitment to pick up the crew, and support for that crew in need."
... in other words, common sense.
"One of the most important things we learnt was that Cohesive, adaptable, and responsive MT requires sophisticated vehicle support that enables passenger sharing, a common perspective of the task, early awareness of resource consumption and needs, commitment to pick up the crew, and support for that crew in need."
... in other words, common sense.
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What I actually mean't was the emerging global MT environment represents a new set of challenges and tasks, and fundamentally changes the rules of how MT provides Crew transport. The new tasks are broader and include Off station, and local elements. They are non-station, multi-dimensional, flexible, distributed, speed trap-aware, and rapidly adapt to RAF strategies and MT orders .
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What I actually mean't was the emerging global MT environment represents a new set of challenges and tasks, and fundamentally changes the rules of how MT provides Crew transport. The new tasks are broader and include Off station, and local elements. They are non-station, multi-dimensional, flexible, distributed, speed trap-aware, and rapidly adapt to RAF strategies and MT orders .
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What I actually mean't was the emerging global MT environment represents a new set of challenges and tasks, and fundamentally changes the rules of how MT provides Crew transport. The new tasks are broader and include Off station, and local elements. They are non-station, multi-dimensional, flexible, distributed, speed trap-aware, and rapidly adapt to RAF strategies and MT orders .
ks, or both!!
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MT demand is ultimately unpredictable. So assumimg that demand is ultimately unpredictable, success depends on the speed of request recognition and speed of response. So perhaps the decision to transport Aircrew necessary to meet operational tasks, and to predict and anticipate MT operations, combined with the strategic, operational, and tactical situation, and the need to generate and evaluate MT, will come down to the ATCO one day.
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What I actually mean't was the emerging global MT environment represents a new set of challenges and tasks, and fundamentally changes the rules of how MT provides Crew transport. The new tasks are broader and include Off station, and local elements. They are non-station, multi-dimensional, flexible, distributed, speed trap-aware, and rapidly adapt to RAF strategies and MT orders
