Battle of Britain was won at sea. Discuss
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Originally Posted by BEagle
There's no accounting for taste.....
First time I ever came across the Bearded Bull****ter was at Deci. He kept going on about how some ground forces had come across a number of American mercenaries fighting for the Argentine in some hut in Lafonia or somewhere and had shot the lot without question when they tried to surrender....
Anyway, back to more important issues:
First time I ever came across the Bearded Bull****ter was at Deci. He kept going on about how some ground forces had come across a number of American mercenaries fighting for the Argentine in some hut in Lafonia or somewhere and had shot the lot without question when they tried to surrender....
Anyway, back to more important issues:
Did Sharky ever get ashore during hostilities? Can't remember seeing him! Rumours were circulating about the mercenaries...who knows?
BTW - my favourite scene!
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Originally Posted by covec
"The Battle of Britain was "a sacrosanct event" for the RAF, like Waterloo for the Army and Trafalgar for the Navy".
Without taking anything away from Fighter Command, I think that it is a travesty that more "recognition" is not forthcoming for the guys of Bomber Command.
We should be ashamed that we do not officially commemorate the sacrifices made by the bomber crews of yesteryear e.g. like BoB Day.
I know that you could argue that it would open up the debate about what battles warranted what commemoration / recognition but come on - we are talking about probably the two biggest RAF events: BoB & the Bomber War - or perhaps people do not recognise (want to?) the sacrifices made by the bombers 'cos it is an FJ airforce?
My grandad served on Wellingtons & Lancasters. Terrible stories....
Without taking anything away from Fighter Command, I think that it is a travesty that more "recognition" is not forthcoming for the guys of Bomber Command.
We should be ashamed that we do not officially commemorate the sacrifices made by the bomber crews of yesteryear e.g. like BoB Day.
I know that you could argue that it would open up the debate about what battles warranted what commemoration / recognition but come on - we are talking about probably the two biggest RAF events: BoB & the Bomber War - or perhaps people do not recognise (want to?) the sacrifices made by the bombers 'cos it is an FJ airforce?
My grandad served on Wellingtons & Lancasters. Terrible stories....
Kev.
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The ultimately superior performance of the RR Merlin engined Spit and Hurricane was directly attributable to the 100 octance fuel available at the time....where in 1940 could you get that stuff?
Answers on a postcard please to: The Yanks Won the BofB for us Competition, RAF Shrivenham, England (courtesy of the RAF, and some Spam oilers, oh and merch navy...God bless 'em, protected by the Royal Navy most of the way...so back to the Merch and Royal Navies winning for us).
BTW I once spoke to MRAF Sir Chris Foxley-Norris (one of the Few and tout circule bon oeuf) and he said that we were on our uppers and that Hitler threw it away like someone who'd done a deal with Ladbrokes!
The greater argument would be that Hitler, having failed in a relatively (to him) simple act of drawing a fellow Anglo Saxon nation to heel, embarked upon the war-losing act of launching Op Barbarossa which really did do it for the Boxheads, even if they didn't know it at the time. So by supplying Hitler with a bloody nose in 1940 and by forcing his attention eastwards, regardless of the revisionist 40-something experts notions, the RAF did actually win WW2! We just got the Russians to do it by proxy.
Nazdarovya!
Answers on a postcard please to: The Yanks Won the BofB for us Competition, RAF Shrivenham, England (courtesy of the RAF, and some Spam oilers, oh and merch navy...God bless 'em, protected by the Royal Navy most of the way...so back to the Merch and Royal Navies winning for us).
BTW I once spoke to MRAF Sir Chris Foxley-Norris (one of the Few and tout circule bon oeuf) and he said that we were on our uppers and that Hitler threw it away like someone who'd done a deal with Ladbrokes!
The greater argument would be that Hitler, having failed in a relatively (to him) simple act of drawing a fellow Anglo Saxon nation to heel, embarked upon the war-losing act of launching Op Barbarossa which really did do it for the Boxheads, even if they didn't know it at the time. So by supplying Hitler with a bloody nose in 1940 and by forcing his attention eastwards, regardless of the revisionist 40-something experts notions, the RAF did actually win WW2! We just got the Russians to do it by proxy.
Nazdarovya!
Odd thing....A Hitler and company never saw Great Britain as the "enemy" but always had the evil eye upon the Soviets. I am lead to believe Hitler would have accepted a negotiated peace with the British so he could have concentrated his forces for the real war in the East. North Africa, Crete, Greece and the Balkans were forced upon him by the inept efforts of the fat buffoon in Italy. Had Mussolini remained on the sidelines and not gotten involved in those places, the Germans would not have had to send troops that direction.
Oh...nice bum she had...but a bit pudgy for American tastes.
Oh...nice bum she had...but a bit pudgy for American tastes.
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"NAVAL historian says RN won the Battle of Britain"
What a surprise. I'm a little disappointed that Christina Gaulter didn't fight the Air corner - but she must be getting on a bit by now...
It says something that virually all the Matelots in here (normally the mortal enemy of us Crabs) think you are talking bollocks, Dr Andrew Gordon.
Ah yes - Susannah's pins & buns. Very nice. The WRAF has definitely gone downhill since...
What a surprise. I'm a little disappointed that Christina Gaulter didn't fight the Air corner - but she must be getting on a bit by now...
It says something that virually all the Matelots in here (normally the mortal enemy of us Crabs) think you are talking bollocks, Dr Andrew Gordon.
Ah yes - Susannah's pins & buns. Very nice. The WRAF has definitely gone downhill since...
One might just as well write an article about how airpower (Coastal Command) won the battle of the Atlantic, not the Navy.
I guess to me the question is - would Hitler have been encouraged to mount Sealion if Goering had convincingly won the battle of Britain and achieved air superiority?
I guess to me the question is - would Hitler have been encouraged to mount Sealion if Goering had convincingly won the battle of Britain and achieved air superiority?
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Sussanah York's bottom; now I remember why the Battle of Britain movie inspired me to join the RAF. Then I joined up and encountered real waafs posteriors - oh the disillusionment!
But seriously, I presume most of us have seen The World at War - an amazing historical tv series that is still the definitive visual account of WWII, not least due to the captivating narration of Laurence Olivier (aka Dowding in the B of B movie coincidentally). In the episode that covers the battle, the Luftwaffe campaign to attack shipping in the channel in the period between Dunkirk and "Adler Tag" (15 Aug 1940 IIRC) should convince anybody of the importance of air superiority in conducting littoral ops in the channel to both sides. The episode includes footage of RN and merchant shipping getting the good news from Stukas and other light bombers.
It is clear that the Germans could not have attempted an invasion without neutralizing the air threat and although I admit that the RN alone could have seriously rained on the germans' parade, without air cover they would have suffered murderous losses themselves. The implicit threat of British seapower was crucial in deterring invasion, but to rubbish the RAF victory is at best disingenuous. Why do you think WWII saw the end of the Battleship as capital vessel to be replaced by the AIRCRAFT carrier.
Revisionists are dangerous people - they're always coming up with these sensational rewrites of history, motivated almost entirely by ego and not a noble struggle to find the truth. Don't let them get away with it!
Honestly I'm not always this serious - rant over.
But seriously, I presume most of us have seen The World at War - an amazing historical tv series that is still the definitive visual account of WWII, not least due to the captivating narration of Laurence Olivier (aka Dowding in the B of B movie coincidentally). In the episode that covers the battle, the Luftwaffe campaign to attack shipping in the channel in the period between Dunkirk and "Adler Tag" (15 Aug 1940 IIRC) should convince anybody of the importance of air superiority in conducting littoral ops in the channel to both sides. The episode includes footage of RN and merchant shipping getting the good news from Stukas and other light bombers.
It is clear that the Germans could not have attempted an invasion without neutralizing the air threat and although I admit that the RN alone could have seriously rained on the germans' parade, without air cover they would have suffered murderous losses themselves. The implicit threat of British seapower was crucial in deterring invasion, but to rubbish the RAF victory is at best disingenuous. Why do you think WWII saw the end of the Battleship as capital vessel to be replaced by the AIRCRAFT carrier.
Revisionists are dangerous people - they're always coming up with these sensational rewrites of history, motivated almost entirely by ego and not a noble struggle to find the truth. Don't let them get away with it!
Honestly I'm not always this serious - rant over.
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Battle fo Britain won by the RN?
I believe it was a combination of effects which dissuaded Hitler from invading. Remember, much of the history of the Battle of Britain we learn about is inaccurate. Was the Battle worth fighting at all? The best evidence that we have on this came from Field Marshal Von Rondstedt. After the end of the war he was interrogated and one of the most important questions asked of him was when he felt that the tide was beginning to turn and when the uninterrupted catalogue of German victories became more and more doubtful. Was it Stalingrad or Leningrad or El Alamein? ‘Oh no,’ replied the Field Marshal, ‘ it was the Battle of Britain.’ This answer certainly surprised the interrogators and they questioned him further. ‘Well you see, that was the fist time I realized that we were not invincible.’
German Field Marshal Gerd Von Rundstedt was known as “a high priest of strategy” and was one of Hitler’s ablest leaders during WWII. He held commands on both the Eastern and Western fronts, played a major role in defeating France in 1940, and led much of the opposition to the Allied offence in the West in 1944-45.
German Field Marshal Gerd Von Rundstedt was known as “a high priest of strategy” and was one of Hitler’s ablest leaders during WWII. He held commands on both the Eastern and Western fronts, played a major role in defeating France in 1940, and led much of the opposition to the Allied offence in the West in 1944-45.
Red On, Green On
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One of the letters in today's Telegraph
From the letters page:
Sir - I was privileged to serve in the RAF and Fleet Air Arm in the Second World War. What is the point of these "military historians" and "leading academics" trying to rewrite history and start an inter-Service argument? Everybody at the time did his or her bit. These clever dicks, who were not there, should shut up.
Edward Huxley, Thorpe, Surrey
Sir - I was privileged to serve in the RAF and Fleet Air Arm in the Second World War. What is the point of these "military historians" and "leading academics" trying to rewrite history and start an inter-Service argument? Everybody at the time did his or her bit. These clever dicks, who were not there, should shut up.
Edward Huxley, Thorpe, Surrey
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Always makes me laugh when a "historian" looks back at something that happened many years ago but with a modern eye.
These idiots are just trying to get advertising for their new book launch.
Not only did the RAF repel the Luftwaffe which made Hitler think twice (we all know that without air supremacy, any land or sea based operation is 10 times more costly and difficult).
What is forgotten though is the backbone that the BoB infused into Britain. The propaganda victory for Churchill was immense and it gave hope to a nation.
Of course the Navy was a huge deterrent also, but if the Luftwaffe had had complete reign over the channel then it would have been incredibly costly for the admiralty.
The Battle of Britain proved to Hitler that it Britain wouldn't capitulate like France and that he'd have a tough time taking it. That battle victory will never be taken away from the few.
These idiots are just trying to get advertising for their new book launch.
Not only did the RAF repel the Luftwaffe which made Hitler think twice (we all know that without air supremacy, any land or sea based operation is 10 times more costly and difficult).
What is forgotten though is the backbone that the BoB infused into Britain. The propaganda victory for Churchill was immense and it gave hope to a nation.
Of course the Navy was a huge deterrent also, but if the Luftwaffe had had complete reign over the channel then it would have been incredibly costly for the admiralty.
The Battle of Britain proved to Hitler that it Britain wouldn't capitulate like France and that he'd have a tough time taking it. That battle victory will never be taken away from the few.
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If the historians are right wouldn't it have made sense to let the Luftwaffe win the BoB then the navy could have sunk the invasion fleet and everyone could have been home for tea and tiffins by christmas? Seems like a missed opportunity to me.
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Is this not just the usual british disease of knocking and denigrating any achievement or victory that has been made, we will no doubt be getting demands soon that the RAF apologise to all the luftwaffe personell that were killed or injured by the over zealous RAF
