So how bad is the charter bridge to the sandpit
Whilst I feel nothing but sympathy for everyone who has had the rough end of the AT service I cannot resist tackling one of the ideas often proposed by the critics. Let's assume that the MoD takes this pearl of wisdom to heart and completely bins the in-house AT capability. Does anyone really think that any money saved would be then spent a higher-quality charter service? In reality, I am sure that any charter will invariably be awarded to the lowest bidder and so any improvement experienced by the end user depends purely on a company who happens to have nicer aircraft winning the contract. Furthermore, the MoD is such a poor customer that any first-rank operator would either not bid, or quickly lose interest. Without any in-house capability the charter firms would have the MoD by the balls and they would know it. Your guess is as good as mine as to effect this would have on the cost of lowest bid. Thirdly, charter companies will not and cannot fit DAS as the equipment would not be released to them by the DoD and it be would outside the civil certification of their aircraft. The crews insurance companies and unions might have a say in this area as well. Finally, and most importantly, all but 3 of the current fleet are also tankers - a capability which cannot be operationally chartered.
By the way, FSTA is also primarily a tanker and the low number of airframes means that AT will not become any more convenient.
By the way, FSTA is also primarily a tanker and the low number of airframes means that AT will not become any more convenient.
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It would seem that we are off on a little tangent here, lets remember the facts as I see them:
A, Excel are not performing, not delivering pax on time to theatre or more importantly taking them home on time.
B, The conditions at deid, although may me temporary, are not fit for the requirement.
Solving A is somewhat more difficult as it involves some contractal and financial input. The soloution to B is probably easier. I see that the movers empire suggest its not their job to provide the facility, correct no its not, but it is their job to facilitate the provision of such. Ask for engrs support, write the document asking for the correct number of toilets some of it will cost money, some of it wont!!!
If you care to speak to any EH Tech they will tell you the correct numbers of toilets that you need for a number of people for a period of time, I can tell you that if you tried to provide 5 toiets for 250 pax for 8 hours in UK you would be closed down by the health dudes. Add the fact that you are doing this in temps of 50 degs and I would suggest that the DAMO / ATLO Capt have a serious duty of care axe hanging over their heads. How would it go down to have a load of blokes arriving in theatre with D&V?
Yes I may be told its not the responsibility of the DAMO to build the facility, correct I agree, but it is his/her responsibility to make sure they are provided.
For illustration get out of the rear and get up to BGW, see what the movers have done there to make the pax life better, nil cost get a few favours from USAF, some extra chairs and a bit of cam net make all the difference. Ok the holding isnt for so long, but the principal of self help is very well demonstrated.
Off course BIAP is still a det run by UKMAMS, perhaps this is why some ownership and care have been demonstrated. Or perhaps there is not so much RLC involvement there?
Keeping it real, and living the dream.
A, Excel are not performing, not delivering pax on time to theatre or more importantly taking them home on time.
B, The conditions at deid, although may me temporary, are not fit for the requirement.
Solving A is somewhat more difficult as it involves some contractal and financial input. The soloution to B is probably easier. I see that the movers empire suggest its not their job to provide the facility, correct no its not, but it is their job to facilitate the provision of such. Ask for engrs support, write the document asking for the correct number of toilets some of it will cost money, some of it wont!!!
If you care to speak to any EH Tech they will tell you the correct numbers of toilets that you need for a number of people for a period of time, I can tell you that if you tried to provide 5 toiets for 250 pax for 8 hours in UK you would be closed down by the health dudes. Add the fact that you are doing this in temps of 50 degs and I would suggest that the DAMO / ATLO Capt have a serious duty of care axe hanging over their heads. How would it go down to have a load of blokes arriving in theatre with D&V?
Yes I may be told its not the responsibility of the DAMO to build the facility, correct I agree, but it is his/her responsibility to make sure they are provided.
For illustration get out of the rear and get up to BGW, see what the movers have done there to make the pax life better, nil cost get a few favours from USAF, some extra chairs and a bit of cam net make all the difference. Ok the holding isnt for so long, but the principal of self help is very well demonstrated.
Off course BIAP is still a det run by UKMAMS, perhaps this is why some ownership and care have been demonstrated. Or perhaps there is not so much RLC involvement there?
Keeping it real, and living the dream.
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Just like to highlight a couple of points I have taken on board from this thread.
I agree that at the moment the charter company (XL/Omni etc) are not providing the service. I for one have made 4 return trips so far and not one has been to schedule - the worst being 18 hours late arriving in theatre with not enough catering for the pax load. This is a DTMA/FMCC/MOD problem which is in the hands of bean-counters and contract writers - but if you don't complain through the DAMO/SAMO officially then nothing is going to happen. The Movs staff have paperwork you can fill-in and forward and XL have a customer service department.
This leads me onto my second point, it wasn't my intention to go mover-bashing as I have the upmost respect for the small group of UKMAMS personnel that I work with, however, the mainly RLC-led Mov personnel at the APOD need to start pushing info up the chain.
The pax holding area is inadequate - at the very least they could fix the aircon units that are there, ask the US Air Force as I'm sure they have a spare 100 or so in a hangar.
As an aside - the toilet/washing facilities are a disgrace, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, to my knowledge it breaks several important H+S/EH regulations.
THE BOYS AND GIRLS GOING/RETURNING TO THE FRONT LINE DESERVE BETTER
Rant over - see you all at the APOD next week - wonder if it will have improved
I agree that at the moment the charter company (XL/Omni etc) are not providing the service. I for one have made 4 return trips so far and not one has been to schedule - the worst being 18 hours late arriving in theatre with not enough catering for the pax load. This is a DTMA/FMCC/MOD problem which is in the hands of bean-counters and contract writers - but if you don't complain through the DAMO/SAMO officially then nothing is going to happen. The Movs staff have paperwork you can fill-in and forward and XL have a customer service department.
This leads me onto my second point, it wasn't my intention to go mover-bashing as I have the upmost respect for the small group of UKMAMS personnel that I work with, however, the mainly RLC-led Mov personnel at the APOD need to start pushing info up the chain.
The pax holding area is inadequate - at the very least they could fix the aircon units that are there, ask the US Air Force as I'm sure they have a spare 100 or so in a hangar.
As an aside - the toilet/washing facilities are a disgrace, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, to my knowledge it breaks several important H+S/EH regulations.
THE BOYS AND GIRLS GOING/RETURNING TO THE FRONT LINE DESERVE BETTER
Rant over - see you all at the APOD next week - wonder if it will have improved
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AFAIK, the Timmy has 10 toilets for it's pax load of 260 (ish). If they go U/S they have to reduce the number of pax, so there is obviously a rule on pax / toilet ratio. Surely the rule is the same on the ground?
Or are we being naive here because the airbridge is part of an Op so the monkeys at the top can gleefully throw the rule book out with the cheque book?
Perhaps it's contraversial, but since the Army are the biggest users of the facility, and no doubt far better qualified at building things than the RAF, why don't THEY do something about it?
Sod who's MEANT to be doing it, they're obviously not, so how about the users do the work and improve their lot from within?
What happened to the days of inginuity when we 'borrowed' things to create a decent environment for ourselves? One only has to look at the bars around FI to see what can be achieved if one has the will!
Or are we being naive here because the airbridge is part of an Op so the monkeys at the top can gleefully throw the rule book out with the cheque book?
Perhaps it's contraversial, but since the Army are the biggest users of the facility, and no doubt far better qualified at building things than the RAF, why don't THEY do something about it?
Sod who's MEANT to be doing it, they're obviously not, so how about the users do the work and improve their lot from within?
What happened to the days of inginuity when we 'borrowed' things to create a decent environment for ourselves? One only has to look at the bars around FI to see what can be achieved if one has the will!
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I am told by an Excel insider that FOD on the airfield was the cause of the flat tire, this requires both tires to be changed on the axle.
Hardly bad flying or maintenance!
Hardly bad flying or maintenance!
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If I was the boss at EID then you're damned right I would be pushing the powers that be, that improvements be made ASAP. As previously said the EID transit has been around a while now.
As the senior mover in KDH I operated out of a 12 man tent that was used for load planning/pax check-in /pax holding area and freight facility. For four months I wrote SOR's and had discussions with the DOB Cdr to get a hardened/ aircon shelter for pax. But to no avail. When PJHQ came for a recce they were gobsmacked even more so when the heavens opened and they and all their bags got soaked through. Now the army are their en masse hopefully my SOR has been implemented to secure pax facilites.
So If any of you are transiting EID soon then ask the DAMO whats being done. Make sure you get the PRO report filled in and sent back up the chain. Hopefully someone will listen and good luck.
We will await the replies from the 'DEID'.
As the senior mover in KDH I operated out of a 12 man tent that was used for load planning/pax check-in /pax holding area and freight facility. For four months I wrote SOR's and had discussions with the DOB Cdr to get a hardened/ aircon shelter for pax. But to no avail. When PJHQ came for a recce they were gobsmacked even more so when the heavens opened and they and all their bags got soaked through. Now the army are their en masse hopefully my SOR has been implemented to secure pax facilites.
So If any of you are transiting EID soon then ask the DAMO whats being done. Make sure you get the PRO report filled in and sent back up the chain. Hopefully someone will listen and good luck.
We will await the replies from the 'DEID'.
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Well, I think we're all pretty much in agreement. The facilities currently are inadequate for the task.
Various suggestions for improvement have been mentioned, all very valid.
So where to go from here?
In my view the customer needs to put in a complaint, but not a whinge. Hopefully this will lead to the ball rolling to get the facilities upgraded. Self-Help is a great idea, so how about instead of the Army/RAF divide, we put our heads together and sort the problem out rather than create more divisions between the services.
I would like to hope somebody with some authority has read this topic, has some clout to sort it and does so very soon. Either that or someone has felt embarrassed enough to pull their finger out after having this shown to them.
Lets wait and see eh?
CC
Various suggestions for improvement have been mentioned, all very valid.
So where to go from here?
In my view the customer needs to put in a complaint, but not a whinge. Hopefully this will lead to the ball rolling to get the facilities upgraded. Self-Help is a great idea, so how about instead of the Army/RAF divide, we put our heads together and sort the problem out rather than create more divisions between the services.
I would like to hope somebody with some authority has read this topic, has some clout to sort it and does so very soon. Either that or someone has felt embarrassed enough to pull their finger out after having this shown to them.
Lets wait and see eh?
CC
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The Telegraph reports that "The first British camp to be handed to the Iraqis was looted almost bare within days of the Army's departure....Most items that could be removed were taken, including air conditioning units, water filtration systems, chairs, bedding and kitchen utensils. When the commander of British forces in south-east Iraq, Brig James Everard, discussed the matter with the province's governor he was told that the camp had "largely gone"."
A pity that the Pongoes didn't do the job for them, and take some much-needed kit to EID.
A pity that the Pongoes didn't do the job for them, and take some much-needed kit to EID.
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I will gladly lead a team of self helpers at the end of my tour even if it means having to extend by a couple of weeks if it will be properly funded and supported with tools and equipment to do the job.
Comp Charlie and MyEdHurts you speak the truth. I will engage the said DAMO face to face and see what either his/her reasons/suggestions are when I next pass through, I have already completed one PRO rep. If he/she points me in the direction of the RLC I am very well connected at Colonel level and will ask him to engage directly from in theatre. I had some PM's from Excel staff and they are most explanatory and apologetic but we are getting what we pay for and the stewardesses are motivated by inflight sales and there arent many!!
I am so P
ed off with the way not only I and my troops are being treated but for those who are even further forward and risk life and limb daily. DTMA/MOD and 2 Gp - you fail us.
If anyone knows the DAMO in the Deid tell them that they will soon be asked some very direct questions, strangely quiet from there isnt it?
CC/Myedhurts - can you PM me with the SAMO/DAMO details and I will engage them direct.
Comp Charlie and MyEdHurts you speak the truth. I will engage the said DAMO face to face and see what either his/her reasons/suggestions are when I next pass through, I have already completed one PRO rep. If he/she points me in the direction of the RLC I am very well connected at Colonel level and will ask him to engage directly from in theatre. I had some PM's from Excel staff and they are most explanatory and apologetic but we are getting what we pay for and the stewardesses are motivated by inflight sales and there arent many!! I am so P
ed off with the way not only I and my troops are being treated but for those who are even further forward and risk life and limb daily. DTMA/MOD and 2 Gp - you fail us.If anyone knows the DAMO in the Deid tell them that they will soon be asked some very direct questions, strangely quiet from there isnt it?
CC/Myedhurts - can you PM me with the SAMO/DAMO details and I will engage them direct.
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Re the burst tyres on the last trip, if the inside info is correct it makes it even worse.
If they had done as planned and gone direct to EID as the contract reads then they would have been empty when they got to BAH, a problem of a/c AOG yes but at least the outbound pax would have been in the right place.
But no the end of the crew day was near and the hotel calling.
Again yes the MOD dont pay the world for the job, but I know they wouldnt have played hardball with the price they never do when it comes to this. I know from the charter brokers that they and the airlines love MOD contracts as they can write their own cheques almost and the price never gets driven down.
But even so XL have entered a contract and they should fullfil it, even if they dont make money from it.
If they had done as planned and gone direct to EID as the contract reads then they would have been empty when they got to BAH, a problem of a/c AOG yes but at least the outbound pax would have been in the right place.
But no the end of the crew day was near and the hotel calling.
Again yes the MOD dont pay the world for the job, but I know they wouldnt have played hardball with the price they never do when it comes to this. I know from the charter brokers that they and the airlines love MOD contracts as they can write their own cheques almost and the price never gets driven down.
But even so XL have entered a contract and they should fullfil it, even if they dont make money from it.
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I would suggest that you staff it properly through the channels here in the UK if that is where you are. Push it up your chain of command and across to either HQ STC or to PJHQ - who are the 'owners' of theatre after all. They are the ones who really need to be engaged and at the proper level - the Movers on teh ground can only do what they are directed to do. Don't keep a big dog and bark yourself.
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2 Gp - you fail us.
But no the end of the crew day was near and the hotel calling.
XL / AA's other failings aside, I'd be FAR more worried about the crew who said "We're getting the job done - we're going over FTL, but f**k it, it'll be alright - what could possibly go wrong?"
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So how bad is the charter bridge to the sandpit?
Back to the original question: the Aussie charter bridge is very comfy, thanks. A330-300, charter from HiFly (ex Air Luxor). Boarding at KWI is basic, but not unbearably so. All other facilities are just fine.
My sympathies to previous contributors (exclusively GBR?).
While not mil crew myself, I flew on this charter a/c sandpit-SYD-sandpit in June/July this year. And, while being female myself I didn't really concentrate much on the hosties, I think most of the menfolk aboard found them unobjectionable. They were Portuguese from the sandpit, and Aussie from Darwin.
I also scored a cockpit ride for the landing at SYD.
H
(edited to correct a typo)
My sympathies to previous contributors (exclusively GBR?).
While not mil crew myself, I flew on this charter a/c sandpit-SYD-sandpit in June/July this year. And, while being female myself I didn't really concentrate much on the hosties, I think most of the menfolk aboard found them unobjectionable. They were Portuguese from the sandpit, and Aussie from Darwin.
I also scored a cockpit ride for the landing at SYD.
H
(edited to correct a typo)
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Originally Posted by hell.kelpie
I also scored a cockpit ride for the landing at SYD.
Not many I'd hazard a guess...
CC
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Cockpit Riding
Originally Posted by Comp Charlie
Unrelated but relevant - how many of you drivers at the pointy end offer Cockpit rides to men? Not many I'd hazard a guess ... CC
H
backing away carefully
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Not looking for them to bust crew duty at all, am pretty well qualified myself in the laws of crew duty, so realise that its not an option.
What I am looking for is the crew to get the pax to the destination and not think of themselves for once. Perhaps just once they could stay in Qatar, I mean its hotsing the Asian games in 4 months the hotels cant be that shabby!!
What I am looking for is the crew to get the pax to the destination and not think of themselves for once. Perhaps just once they could stay in Qatar, I mean its hotsing the Asian games in 4 months the hotels cant be that shabby!!
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GB to Aussie Defence Forces
[QUOTE=hell.kelpie]Back to the original question: the Aussie charter bridge is very comfy, thanks. A330-300, charter from HiFly (ex Air Luxor). Boarding at KWI is basic, but not unbearably so. All other facilities are just fine.
My sympathies to previous contributors (exclusively GBR?).
This is why Brits are jumping ship to Aussie Defence Forces, not the fact that they would come home to a Sun Sea and Sand life style. It is how the Aussies take care of their people. According to article in Mail on Sunday Paper which I can't find on net. Brit MOD is quoting the "lifestyle" as the reason for the jump. Some people can't see inches in front of themselves.
My sympathies to previous contributors (exclusively GBR?).
This is why Brits are jumping ship to Aussie Defence Forces, not the fact that they would come home to a Sun Sea and Sand life style. It is how the Aussies take care of their people. According to article in Mail on Sunday Paper which I can't find on net. Brit MOD is quoting the "lifestyle" as the reason for the jump. Some people can't see inches in front of themselves.
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Aussies & Brits, with Doha hotels
Trap, I see your point (and can't help but agree), but don't forget our own forces recently took two tremendous blows over dealing with "our own people" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Kovco )- it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.
But then, I've also met two new RAN officers - one ex-USN, the other ex-Dutch Navy - on the one HMA Ship.
Nat, as for your crews bypassing DOH for BAH, I've no idea why - there are some fabulous hotels in DOH. And while FP may not bless them all (and the one with decent Aussie beer is one of those unfortunates), the good ones are spectacular.
H
Glad our charter bridge isn't via OTBH
But then, I've also met two new RAN officers - one ex-USN, the other ex-Dutch Navy - on the one HMA Ship.
Nat, as for your crews bypassing DOH for BAH, I've no idea why - there are some fabulous hotels in DOH. And while FP may not bless them all (and the one with decent Aussie beer is one of those unfortunates), the good ones are spectacular.
H
Glad our charter bridge isn't via OTBH
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Comp Charlie,
Would you do me a favour and stop blurting your irrelevant, inaccurate, b#ll#x comments and by doing so allow me to scroll through this thread that much quicker, on my high end top quality Paridgm PC.
Especially regards RAF AT vs Civvie, come back when you have your facts straight and something mildly intelligent to say.
Best wishes,
CG
Would you do me a favour and stop blurting your irrelevant, inaccurate, b#ll#x comments and by doing so allow me to scroll through this thread that much quicker, on my high end top quality Paridgm PC.
Especially regards RAF AT vs Civvie, come back when you have your facts straight and something mildly intelligent to say.
Best wishes,
CG