eurofighter
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by Lone Kestrel
Buying American is not always the best deal, let us wait and see how JSF technology transfer goes when the RAF want to add a national only capability.
Of course the USA then did exactly that when they sold the Matador to Spain.
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[QUOTE=brickhistory]
Indeed, competition is highly desirable.
I have been told by suitably empowered people "STOP asking for the gun, you're not going to get it - now go away!". However, I still occasionally, and completely accidentally, mention the lamentable lack of gun in my scribblings (in the vain hope that someone 'up there' will do something about it).
Ray :-)
Originally Posted by Raymond Ginardon
Ray, I want the RAF to get the Typhoon, not buy the F-22. Besides brewing up a better cup of tea, competition is the best way for the aerospace industry to progress. If Boeing/Lockheed become the only players in the West, they will get even more arrogant and less responsive to the customer than they are now.
And as to the Typhoon, get your politicians to buy the gun support equipment. Having a gun for 'ballast' is one of the silliest things ever!
(Since the Typhoon has been so long in coming, perhaps someone could approach your HLF for a substantial grant and you could then get the bullets?!)
And as to the Typhoon, get your politicians to buy the gun support equipment. Having a gun for 'ballast' is one of the silliest things ever!
(Since the Typhoon has been so long in coming, perhaps someone could approach your HLF for a substantial grant and you could then get the bullets?!)
I have been told by suitably empowered people "STOP asking for the gun, you're not going to get it - now go away!". However, I still occasionally, and completely accidentally, mention the lamentable lack of gun in my scribblings (in the vain hope that someone 'up there' will do something about it).
Ray :-)
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vbmenu_register("postmenu_2787343", true);
nigegilb, Typhoon has been against the F22 in China lake, Typhoon surprised the F22 with radar lock and F22 cried off home claiming to be unstealthed anyway, although the next days scheduled two on two was cancelled, the USAF decided they didn't want to play out no more
nigegilb, Typhoon has been against the F22 in China lake, Typhoon surprised the F22 with radar lock and F22 cried off home claiming to be unstealthed anyway, although the next days scheduled two on two was cancelled, the USAF decided they didn't want to play out no more
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Before everyone gets too excited about selected Typhoon stories it is undeniable that F22 is far superior in the air superiority (supremacy/dominance/whatever) role and always will be - its not just the current operational capability.
I think it is also quite clear that Typhoon will be far more capable and flexible in the air to ground role.
Lastly, only an employee of Lockheed Martin would deny that F22 is far more expensive than Typhoon.
If you asked me which one I would want to fly it would be F22 every day of the week (damn you Dan!)
If you asked me which one I think the RAF (UK PLC) should buy it would be Typhoon, without a doubt, and I find it hard to understand anyone who thinks otherwise.
I think it is also quite clear that Typhoon will be far more capable and flexible in the air to ground role.
Lastly, only an employee of Lockheed Martin would deny that F22 is far more expensive than Typhoon.
If you asked me which one I would want to fly it would be F22 every day of the week (damn you Dan!)
If you asked me which one I think the RAF (UK PLC) should buy it would be Typhoon, without a doubt, and I find it hard to understand anyone who thinks otherwise.
Originally Posted by NoseGunner
it is undeniable that F22 is far superior in the air superiority (supremacy/dominance/whatever) role and always will be
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Jacko,
You said "The last NAO UPC (in major projects report 2005) was given as £64.8 m, but included fixed costs from Tranche 3, while being divided by the total number of aircraft in Tranche 1 and Tranche 2"
You are not correct in stating fixed production costs from Tranche 3 are included. As with any procurement program with fixed costs, the more that are built, the larger the base to amortize the costs over.
Amortization is not a hard concept to understand: fixed number divided by the number built. Therefore more built = lower average.
Bottom line, the average cost to the UK of building the first 144 Typhoons is £64.8m. No need for any qualification.
Or about $120m at today's exchange rates.
F-22's aren't for sale right now and even if they were, nobody has mentioned a price. I'd guess at least $150m.
You said "The last NAO UPC (in major projects report 2005) was given as £64.8 m, but included fixed costs from Tranche 3, while being divided by the total number of aircraft in Tranche 1 and Tranche 2"
You are not correct in stating fixed production costs from Tranche 3 are included. As with any procurement program with fixed costs, the more that are built, the larger the base to amortize the costs over.
Amortization is not a hard concept to understand: fixed number divided by the number built. Therefore more built = lower average.
Bottom line, the average cost to the UK of building the first 144 Typhoons is £64.8m. No need for any qualification.
Or about $120m at today's exchange rates.
F-22's aren't for sale right now and even if they were, nobody has mentioned a price. I'd guess at least $150m.
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ZH875
Are you really saying that Typhoon is better than F22 in the air to air role?? Seriously? Just as an opener I would say F22 wins on:
1. Height, speed and manoeuverability
2. Stealth
3. Second generation AESA
The only thing I can think of that Typhoon has that the Raptor doesn't is an IRSTS and by the time that becomes useful its too late!
I am genuinely interested to hear why you think Typhoon is more capable.
Are you really saying that Typhoon is better than F22 in the air to air role?? Seriously? Just as an opener I would say F22 wins on:
1. Height, speed and manoeuverability
2. Stealth
3. Second generation AESA
The only thing I can think of that Typhoon has that the Raptor doesn't is an IRSTS and by the time that becomes useful its too late!
I am genuinely interested to hear why you think Typhoon is more capable.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The F-22 is unexportable for security reasons. The latest AWST reports that the idea of selling it to Japan look impossible both because of Congress security fears and, even if approved, it would vost at least $1 billion to change the avionics to incorporate tamperproof black boxes.
So the USAF may have the best airplane, but it will never get any export sales, leaving the top end market to the Typhoon, Rafale, SU-30/33 etc.
And there is a distinct possibility the F-35 will end up in the same boat.....
So the USAF may have the best airplane, but it will never get any export sales, leaving the top end market to the Typhoon, Rafale, SU-30/33 etc.
And there is a distinct possibility the F-35 will end up in the same boat.....
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With a unit cost of $130 million, the F-22 is unlikely to be a major player on the export market, and although Congress is moving towards rescinding the prohibition on overseas sales of the Raptor, the US government will still have to decide what technology is releasable. With production set to end in 2012 after just 183 aircraft, less than half the USAF's stated requirement, exports could keep the line open, but Japan is the only realistic prospect.
Exportable F-22
Repeal of the so-called Obey amendment would allow the US Air Force to fund Lockheed to develop an exportable configuration for the F-22, but the aircraft would still have to compete for any Japanese order against the latest F-15 and F/A-18 variants, as well as the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon - all fourth-generation fighters by Lockheed's reckoning.
Full article
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...he+fifth+.html
Exportable F-22
Repeal of the so-called Obey amendment would allow the US Air Force to fund Lockheed to develop an exportable configuration for the F-22, but the aircraft would still have to compete for any Japanese order against the latest F-15 and F/A-18 variants, as well as the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon - all fourth-generation fighters by Lockheed's reckoning.
Full article
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...he+fifth+.html
Ron,
The unit price of Tranche 1 was £45.45 m (excluding R&D, production investment, etc.) and of Tranche 2 it's £42 m. Those are official, audited figures.
The last proper NAO average UPC was £49.1 m in Major Projects Report 2004, though it included production investment costs and some weapons system costs, and so was higher than equivalent US UPCs, which don't.
The last NAO UPC (in major projects report 2005) was given as £64.8 m, and the MoD have said that these included fixed costs from all three Tranches, but that these are now divided by the total number of aircraft in Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 only, making them an inaccurate average.
NB: The MPR 05 figure is some £20 m higher than ALL other available Typhoon figures. It's £15.7 m higher than the previous year's figure. There has been no increase in costs to account for that, only a change in the way in which the figures were drawn up. Eurofighter GmbH's Programme Director has challenged the £64.8 m figure in print.
I suspect that a full explanation will appear in print soon enough.
The unit price of Tranche 1 was £45.45 m (excluding R&D, production investment, etc.) and of Tranche 2 it's £42 m. Those are official, audited figures.
The last proper NAO average UPC was £49.1 m in Major Projects Report 2004, though it included production investment costs and some weapons system costs, and so was higher than equivalent US UPCs, which don't.
The last NAO UPC (in major projects report 2005) was given as £64.8 m, and the MoD have said that these included fixed costs from all three Tranches, but that these are now divided by the total number of aircraft in Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 only, making them an inaccurate average.
NB: The MPR 05 figure is some £20 m higher than ALL other available Typhoon figures. It's £15.7 m higher than the previous year's figure. There has been no increase in costs to account for that, only a change in the way in which the figures were drawn up. Eurofighter GmbH's Programme Director has challenged the £64.8 m figure in print.
I suspect that a full explanation will appear in print soon enough.
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Jacko, you need to go to accountancy school 101 to learn about amortization. Right now the concept is clearly beyond you.
Must be a comfort to the MoD to know you have their back. Anytime they want to figure out how much they've spent they can call you. So much nicer than dealing with those nasty green shade Treasury types. Plus you'll tell them they have more in the bank than they reckon. 144 Typhoons times £20m less each = £2.8billion. Sweet - they can run out & buy more wokka's. Or C-17s.
Must be a comfort to the MoD to know you have their back. Anytime they want to figure out how much they've spent they can call you. So much nicer than dealing with those nasty green shade Treasury types. Plus you'll tell them they have more in the bank than they reckon. 144 Typhoons times £20m less each = £2.8billion. Sweet - they can run out & buy more wokka's. Or C-17s.
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C-17 program needs some sales PDQ or Boeing's shutting down the line.
Competition, as has been mentioned, is an excellent antidote for price excesses and performance degrades. By all means, build the Eurofighter, and make it better than the F-22.
Ensuring interoperability, in the form of common AGE, refueling, etc., should remain a driving criterion, but I have no chauvinistic desire to insist on American designs prime contractors if the better solution is available from Europe or Asia. The whole purpose of defense spending is to defend the free world, not to make money or create jobs. Sometimes we forget that.
Competition, as has been mentioned, is an excellent antidote for price excesses and performance degrades. By all means, build the Eurofighter, and make it better than the F-22.
Ensuring interoperability, in the form of common AGE, refueling, etc., should remain a driving criterion, but I have no chauvinistic desire to insist on American designs prime contractors if the better solution is available from Europe or Asia. The whole purpose of defense spending is to defend the free world, not to make money or create jobs. Sometimes we forget that.
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What aircraft has the Typhoon trained (DACT) with so far.
AFAIK the list is:-
UK Hawks
US F-15 Lakenheath!!
French Mirages 2000 late august!!
F-22 china lake
F16 singapore evaluation.
Any others
Cheers
AFAIK the list is:-
UK Hawks
US F-15 Lakenheath!!
French Mirages 2000 late august!!
F-22 china lake
F16 singapore evaluation.
Any others
Cheers
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Well why would they agree, we were at war with them at the time.. 
As for the Eurofighter typhoon The Germans also had an aircraft in WWII called the Typhun it was a spotter plane.. IIRC
As for the Eurofighter typhoon The Germans also had an aircraft in WWII called the Typhun it was a spotter plane.. IIRC
EF2000 Bureaufighter was named 'Typhoon' after a meeting between 'they-who-eat-Sauerkraut' and others some years ago..........
UK: "We need a name for this new jet. We don't think that Spitfire II would be terribly suitable, so we suggest a name following on the 'wind' tradition started by Tornado. How about 'Tempest'?"
t-w-e-S: "Nein. We are with this not happy being. Verdammte Englanders did my father in his Me262 mit ein Hawker Tempest shoot down. Ve suggest Sturm!"
UK: "No, sorry old chap. Too many memories of Storm Troopers goose-stepping across Europe..... We'd prefer 'Hurricane'"
t-w-e-S: "Nein. This is not possible."
UK: "OK - something else then. How about 'Typhoon'.....?"
t-w-e-S: "Nein! You also had those in the Second Weltkrieg. Ve do NOT vant unser aircraft so named being....
UK: "Ah - but you had a 'Typhoon' or rather 'Taifun' as well. Me 108 Taifun, if you recall....!"
t-w-e-S: "Himmel! Sie haben recht. Ve did indeed. Perhaps ve can consider this?"
UK: "OK - perhaps. Or what about 'Cyclone'? No-one had any aeroplane called 'Cyclone'?"
t-w-e-S: "Hmm. Sehr interesting. Zis ist perhaps OK. Ja - ve are liking 'Cyclone', oder, wie sagt man auf Deutsch, 'Zyklon'. Ve can fur das Singleseaterflugzeug 'Zyklon A' have, und fur das Doppelseaterjagdbomberflugzeug, vielleicht 'Zyklon B'......"
UK: "Ahhh - we don't think that would be a terribly good name. We want to sell our jet overseas. We don't think that 'Zyklon B' would go down terribly well with some of our potential customers. Such as Israel....."
t-w-e-S: "Ach so. Perhaps then ve should agree on 'Taifun'!"
UK: "Yes. ‘Typhoon’ it is then. Spot of lunch, old chap?"
t-w-e-S: "Danke"
UK: "We need a name for this new jet. We don't think that Spitfire II would be terribly suitable, so we suggest a name following on the 'wind' tradition started by Tornado. How about 'Tempest'?"
t-w-e-S: "Nein. We are with this not happy being. Verdammte Englanders did my father in his Me262 mit ein Hawker Tempest shoot down. Ve suggest Sturm!"
UK: "No, sorry old chap. Too many memories of Storm Troopers goose-stepping across Europe..... We'd prefer 'Hurricane'"
t-w-e-S: "Nein. This is not possible."
UK: "OK - something else then. How about 'Typhoon'.....?"
t-w-e-S: "Nein! You also had those in the Second Weltkrieg. Ve do NOT vant unser aircraft so named being....
UK: "Ah - but you had a 'Typhoon' or rather 'Taifun' as well. Me 108 Taifun, if you recall....!"
t-w-e-S: "Himmel! Sie haben recht. Ve did indeed. Perhaps ve can consider this?"
UK: "OK - perhaps. Or what about 'Cyclone'? No-one had any aeroplane called 'Cyclone'?"
t-w-e-S: "Hmm. Sehr interesting. Zis ist perhaps OK. Ja - ve are liking 'Cyclone', oder, wie sagt man auf Deutsch, 'Zyklon'. Ve can fur das Singleseaterflugzeug 'Zyklon A' have, und fur das Doppelseaterjagdbomberflugzeug, vielleicht 'Zyklon B'......"
UK: "Ahhh - we don't think that would be a terribly good name. We want to sell our jet overseas. We don't think that 'Zyklon B' would go down terribly well with some of our potential customers. Such as Israel....."
t-w-e-S: "Ach so. Perhaps then ve should agree on 'Taifun'!"
UK: "Yes. ‘Typhoon’ it is then. Spot of lunch, old chap?"
t-w-e-S: "Danke"
The Germans haven't agreed the name Typhoon.
Officially they still use the name Eurofighter.
The official Luftwaffe website page on the aircraft
http://http://www.luftwaffe.de/porta...lVRS82XzdfMTBK
makes no mention of the names Taifun or Typhoon at all.
The name Typhoon was initially agreed for export aircraft, and was then adopted by the UK. Since then Tifon/Tifone have been used by the two Mediterranean partners, though Spain also uses the numerical designations C16 and CE16, and in Italy, the official name seems to be Eurofighter 2000, with 'Il Tifone' also used and recognised, but usually in a secondary way in official pubs (see www.aeronautica.difesa.it/SitoAM/Default. asp?idnot=15411&idsez=1776&idarg=&idente=1398).
Officially they still use the name Eurofighter.
The official Luftwaffe website page on the aircraft
http://http://www.luftwaffe.de/porta...lVRS82XzdfMTBK
makes no mention of the names Taifun or Typhoon at all.
The name Typhoon was initially agreed for export aircraft, and was then adopted by the UK. Since then Tifon/Tifone have been used by the two Mediterranean partners, though Spain also uses the numerical designations C16 and CE16, and in Italy, the official name seems to be Eurofighter 2000, with 'Il Tifone' also used and recognised, but usually in a secondary way in official pubs (see www.aeronautica.difesa.it/SitoAM/Default. asp?idnot=15411&idsez=1776&idarg=&idente=1398).
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The Germans haven't agreed the name Typhoon.
The crypto key management system applicable for the RAF Eurofighter accronym is TLKMS. Which means to no suprise "Typhoon Local Key Management System, which will provide the keys for all cryptos fitted to the aircraft in a single operation.
As far as RAF is concerned Typhoon it is, I guess the Europeans can call it what they like.
With reference as to whether the Typhoon is superior to another aircraft is irrelevant. If its fit for purpose and carries out its role all other considerations are noise.
As far as RAF is concerned Typhoon it is, I guess the Europeans can call it what they like.
With reference as to whether the Typhoon is superior to another aircraft is irrelevant. If its fit for purpose and carries out its role all other considerations are noise.
