F104 - fundamentally flawed
Originally Posted by parabellum
When the GAF took on the F104G they didn't have much senior technical experience of that generation of jets and Lockheed offered to lend them some in the shape of experienced crew chiefs etc. but the Luftwaffe refused, even though their senior men had missed out on the early generation of military jets in air force service they insisted that they could hack it.
As Jacko has already pointed out, the GAF let very inexperienced pilots loose on the F104G whereas the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian air forces ensured at least one tour on the F86 or F100 before a tour on the F104.
As Jacko has already pointed out, the GAF let very inexperienced pilots loose on the F104G whereas the Dutch, Danish, Norwegian air forces ensured at least one tour on the F86 or F100 before a tour on the F104.
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The Pakistan Air Force also flew F-104As. They used them pretty effectively in the 1965 War - even using them as nightfighters and shooting down an Indian Air Force Canberra B(I)58 whose pilot had turned off the "Orange Putter" tail warning radar because it was making too much noise at low level and then forget to turn it on again in the zoom to height over the target!
One got shot down by a Mystere IV, and one was lost when the pilot was trying to land in a sandstorm. He survived after crashing and went on to become Chief of the Air Staff! AFAIK there were only two Pakistani F-104 crashes in 10 years of operations. (They had a squadron of 12 or 13).
In 1971 the Indian made MiG-21FLs with the India specified Gsh-23 twin barrel gun pack showed themselves to be far superior. The score was Starfighters downed 8 vs MiG-21s downed 0. The MiG-21 could turn with the birds and could overtake the F-104As/Cs at low level. A lot of the kills were gun kills of CAPs (some were Atoll kills) - which meant that they were chasing the F-104s coming in at high speeds at low level - and catching them quickly. (The MiG-21 didnt have enough fuel to chase them very far!).
One got shot down by a Mystere IV, and one was lost when the pilot was trying to land in a sandstorm. He survived after crashing and went on to become Chief of the Air Staff! AFAIK there were only two Pakistani F-104 crashes in 10 years of operations. (They had a squadron of 12 or 13).
In 1971 the Indian made MiG-21FLs with the India specified Gsh-23 twin barrel gun pack showed themselves to be far superior. The score was Starfighters downed 8 vs MiG-21s downed 0. The MiG-21 could turn with the birds and could overtake the F-104As/Cs at low level. A lot of the kills were gun kills of CAPs (some were Atoll kills) - which meant that they were chasing the F-104s coming in at high speeds at low level - and catching them quickly. (The MiG-21 didnt have enough fuel to chase them very far!).
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By all accounts the Starfighter was a surprisingly reliable aircraft and statistically-speaking, it was much less "dangerous" than many other types. The A-7 for example, suffered many more accidents as did other types.
Unfortunately, the Starfighter suffered from bad publicity which all centered on Germany's unhappy experience with the type. In essence, there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, it was Germany's ridiculous training set-up and their gung-ho attitude towards the subject (a bit like a clip from "Magnificent Men" complete with the proverbial book of instructions!) that resulted in so many crashes. Other nations enjoyed a long and successful association with the type but you know how aviation comentators/enthusisats are - once a story gets thrown-about, it sticks, especially when someone coins a few easy-to-remember catch-phrases like "widow maker" and "flying coffin" etc. Of course, the phrases were not used by the people who actually flew the aircraft, but as we know, mud sticks...
Shame really, because the Starfighter was a hugely successful aircraft.
Unfortunately, the Starfighter suffered from bad publicity which all centered on Germany's unhappy experience with the type. In essence, there was nothing wrong with the aircraft, it was Germany's ridiculous training set-up and their gung-ho attitude towards the subject (a bit like a clip from "Magnificent Men" complete with the proverbial book of instructions!) that resulted in so many crashes. Other nations enjoyed a long and successful association with the type but you know how aviation comentators/enthusisats are - once a story gets thrown-about, it sticks, especially when someone coins a few easy-to-remember catch-phrases like "widow maker" and "flying coffin" etc. Of course, the phrases were not used by the people who actually flew the aircraft, but as we know, mud sticks...
Shame really, because the Starfighter was a hugely successful aircraft.
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Probably known to most but there's still a display team in the US flying the F-104. Their site has also a link to F-104 related websites. http://www.starfighters.net/extras/links/links.html
f104 story
Wholigan! Long time no see. Certain amount of tosh in these posts, don't you think?
I flew the Zip on a wonderful exchange tour with the Dutch in the late 70s. We were TACR with secondary G/A role, doing mostly long-range LL recce around Germany and France (exporting the noise!) Our LL radius of action was better than the Jag at the time (The Jag's ONLY selling point if I recall), and we could dial up Mach 2/800 knots when necessary.
I flew the heaviest version, the RF104G, with a takeoff speed of 220kts and MINIMUM landing speed of 185kts. Bit of an eyeopener after the Harrier. Flapless and fully loaded, 1g pre-stall buffet cut in at about 360kts, but we could use mid flap up to 520kt, so who cared?
The recce jet had no gun (extra fuel), so we borrowed the F models for range practice - strafing with 20mm Gatling was something else compared to Harrier/Hunter! The muzzle was about 6in from your left elbow.
We also used to practise Partial Power (similar to dead-stick) patterns; from the overhead about 12grand, glide at idle with mid flap at 300kt, aim short and pop the gear in the flare. (The gear moved VERY fast). No prob stopping: excellent brakes, a hook and a nice big drag bag.
Had a nice autopilot too. Post recce target I would engage it in Height Hold in the turn while I wrote down my target VISREP (boring recce stuff; I was a dyed-in-the-wool G/A and Air Combat man myself)
The Dutch had about 4 fatalities on type during my 3 years on the jet. However, a wonderful machine. Would rather have gone to war in it than Harrier/Hunter. The Dutch wouldn't let anyone fly it with less than 500hrs fast jet time; (done on the F5). I mean a proper fast jet, not the Hawk!
I flew the Zip on a wonderful exchange tour with the Dutch in the late 70s. We were TACR with secondary G/A role, doing mostly long-range LL recce around Germany and France (exporting the noise!) Our LL radius of action was better than the Jag at the time (The Jag's ONLY selling point if I recall), and we could dial up Mach 2/800 knots when necessary.
I flew the heaviest version, the RF104G, with a takeoff speed of 220kts and MINIMUM landing speed of 185kts. Bit of an eyeopener after the Harrier. Flapless and fully loaded, 1g pre-stall buffet cut in at about 360kts, but we could use mid flap up to 520kt, so who cared?
The recce jet had no gun (extra fuel), so we borrowed the F models for range practice - strafing with 20mm Gatling was something else compared to Harrier/Hunter! The muzzle was about 6in from your left elbow.
We also used to practise Partial Power (similar to dead-stick) patterns; from the overhead about 12grand, glide at idle with mid flap at 300kt, aim short and pop the gear in the flare. (The gear moved VERY fast). No prob stopping: excellent brakes, a hook and a nice big drag bag.
Had a nice autopilot too. Post recce target I would engage it in Height Hold in the turn while I wrote down my target VISREP (boring recce stuff; I was a dyed-in-the-wool G/A and Air Combat man myself)
The Dutch had about 4 fatalities on type during my 3 years on the jet. However, a wonderful machine. Would rather have gone to war in it than Harrier/Hunter. The Dutch wouldn't let anyone fly it with less than 500hrs fast jet time; (done on the F5). I mean a proper fast jet, not the Hawk!
Gentleman Aviator
By all accounts the Starfighter was a surprisingly reliable aircraft and statistically-speaking, it was much less "dangerous" than many other types. The A-7 for example, suffered many more accidents as did other types.
I was recently researching some civil air accident stats and was slightly surpised to discover that 144 Viscounts had been lost and/or written off ....... out of a production run of 445!
