malcolm kendall smith is free...ish!
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malcolm kendall smith is free...ish!
chaps and chapesses....malcolm is free. i found out from a very reliable source that he is electronically tagged and has to be in by 18.00 but he is free. it's ridiculous that he is being subjected to the treatment as if he is a threat to society.
Last edited by chappie; 27th Jun 2006 at 21:17.
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In my opinion, humble as it may be, no he hasn't suffered enough. I feel sorry for the guy, but if it was someone of a NCO rank we would have been hung drawn and quartered, so if it is true that he is out and tagged, then I'm sorry to say he has been let of very very lightly.
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Lost and Filed
Totally agree, took the Queens's shilling didn't he? We might not agree with what El Presidente Bliar wants but when he snaps his fingers, we go to do his bidding for Queen and country.
RR
Totally agree, took the Queens's shilling didn't he? We might not agree with what El Presidente Bliar wants but when he snaps his fingers, we go to do his bidding for Queen and country.
RR
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Hear Hear - I hear he wanted to call that SAS squaddie as a witness and was told he couldn't as his case was totally different. Well there we go, Officers getting into trouble themselves and trying to get bailed out by the other ranks - though in this case it didn't work, in fact it backfired on him. Especially with it about to be his 3rd tour out there - what was he thinking - that the RAF would turn round and give it "It's quite alright old chap we understand u don't want to go to war AGAIN, here u go go take the day off" come on - wake up and smell the roses - that aint ever going to happen no matter what rank u r - if ur told 2 go 2 war, u go, end of argument.
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Originally Posted by Lost & Filed
if ur told 2 go 2 war, u go, end of argument.
I do however agree that the convict should have been subjected to a longer period of imprisonment. He was sentenced on 13th April, I believe. That's not even three months ago. Surely his sentence should have been longer than the deployment he was evading by disobeying the orders given. It seems he spent less time in clink than he would have in Iraq?
Some of the posts on this thread sound as though they're from descendants of the baying rabble who used to watch public executions in the Middle Ages...
Here is a counter view from Matthew Norman in The Independent; it has much substance:
Kendall-Smith agreed with Kofi Annan and countless millions of others around the world that the war against Iraq was illegal. Since he'd been already served in Afghanistan and Iraq with distinction, it is safe to accept that he is neither a coward nor a conscientious objector. He simply decided, having studied the matter in depth, that the war was illegal under international law, UN rulings and, perhaps most pertinently, the Nuremberg Principles established in 1950 that ended forever the classic defence of just obeying orders.
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior," states Principle IV, "does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
I agree with chappie; the punishment meted out was entirely disproportionate to the alleged offence.
Here is a counter view from Matthew Norman in The Independent; it has much substance:
Kendall-Smith agreed with Kofi Annan and countless millions of others around the world that the war against Iraq was illegal. Since he'd been already served in Afghanistan and Iraq with distinction, it is safe to accept that he is neither a coward nor a conscientious objector. He simply decided, having studied the matter in depth, that the war was illegal under international law, UN rulings and, perhaps most pertinently, the Nuremberg Principles established in 1950 that ended forever the classic defence of just obeying orders.
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior," states Principle IV, "does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
I agree with chappie; the punishment meted out was entirely disproportionate to the alleged offence.
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Repeated direct disobedience and failure to comply with lawful orders (range work and fitting/supply of kit and equipment). Punishment is fair - any less and everyone would be trying it on.
Gentleman Aviator
Not quite sure of the point you are making BEags old fruit.
As was mentioned at the trial, the war in Iraq was over by the time he refused to go, so its legality or otherwise was not germane to the charge. It was without doubt (in law) that the allied presence in Iraq at the time that Smith refused to go was indeed legal in international law. His defence seemed to be along the lines of "well it was illegal when I did go, so I won't go now".
Even poorly-educated non-graduate grammar-school oiks like oneself can spot a lack of logic when it's that obvious.
And btw, have you noticed how a preponderence of double-barrelled names seem to be attached to very common names, like Kendall-Smith, Armstrong-Jones and Heath-Robinson.
As was mentioned at the trial, the war in Iraq was over by the time he refused to go, so its legality or otherwise was not germane to the charge. It was without doubt (in law) that the allied presence in Iraq at the time that Smith refused to go was indeed legal in international law. His defence seemed to be along the lines of "well it was illegal when I did go, so I won't go now".
Even poorly-educated non-graduate grammar-school oiks like oneself can spot a lack of logic when it's that obvious.
And btw, have you noticed how a preponderence of double-barrelled names seem to be attached to very common names, like Kendall-Smith, Armstrong-Jones and Heath-Robinson.
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Simple fact he disobeyed a legal order. What should he get? A medal?
Secondly by the time he chose to object we weren't at war. We were invited guests of the democratically elected government of the country and there were UN mandates to back our presence. I'm sorry I don't think the chap had a leg to stand on. Clever move to try him with not turning up to training etc. to avoid the issue of the war's legality being dragged through the court-martial though.
Incidentally does anyone know how he has got on with the GMC? There was talk he may be struck off for abndoning his duty of care to his patients.
Regards
Secondly by the time he chose to object we weren't at war. We were invited guests of the democratically elected government of the country and there were UN mandates to back our presence. I'm sorry I don't think the chap had a leg to stand on. Clever move to try him with not turning up to training etc. to avoid the issue of the war's legality being dragged through the court-martial though.
Incidentally does anyone know how he has got on with the GMC? There was talk he may be struck off for abndoning his duty of care to his patients.
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Not that it matters a fig, he disobeyed legal orders and got punished, but can anyone confirm that he had actually served IN Iraq before?
Several articles seem to imply that his 2 previous OOAs had been in support of operations in Iraq. Should this be the case, seems to me that he had no moral problem with the situation in Iraq, including the 2003 operations, until he had to put himself in harms way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1753241,00.html
Kendall-Smith formed his belief that the war was unlawful after serving tours of duty in Kuwait and Qatar at the time of the invasion.
Of course I could be barking up completely the wrong tree....
Several articles seem to imply that his 2 previous OOAs had been in support of operations in Iraq. Should this be the case, seems to me that he had no moral problem with the situation in Iraq, including the 2003 operations, until he had to put himself in harms way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1753241,00.html
Kendall-Smith formed his belief that the war was unlawful after serving tours of duty in Kuwait and Qatar at the time of the invasion.
Of course I could be barking up completely the wrong tree....
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Sorry, but I think the crux is still that he abandoned the boys and girls who might have needed his medical skills in theatre. No sympathy from SB, this desertion of his colleagues is unacceptable - he was never going to be asked to shoot anyone, only mend those that had been shot. Don't care what his political/moral opinion was...
Little old lady just been locked up for not paying her council tax. Perspective? IMHO he deserved his time...
Little old lady just been locked up for not paying her council tax. Perspective? IMHO he deserved his time...
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Prison or Bailiffs?
Slightly off thread, aplogies. This lady has gone to prison for not paying her council tax,and being in prison will not cancel the debt BTW. Can anyone explain what determines whether someone goes to prison for owing money or whether the bailiffs are sent in to remove property, to be sold to clear the debt? I guess this lady had £1000 worth of goods in her house so why is she in prison?
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Sorry, but I think the crux is still that he abandoned the boys and girls who might have needed his medical skills in theatre. No sympathy from SB, this desertion of his colleagues is unacceptable - he was never going to be asked to shoot anyone, only mend those that had been shot.
He could very easily have done just as the Hereford lad, had a quiet word, and been posted to RAF Little Snoring while he waited for his PVR to complete. Instead he chose to make a big fuss about it. My middle, actress-in-waiting daughter could not have made more of a drama.
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Southside,
The day we no longer care what one another's political, moral or ethical opinion is, is the day I hang my wings on the bedpost. Signing up does not mean that we no longer have an opinion and that it is no longer valuable. I'm not saying that I agree with this individual's action, but I most certainly agree with an expression of moral.
S4M
The day we no longer care what one another's political, moral or ethical opinion is, is the day I hang my wings on the bedpost. Signing up does not mean that we no longer have an opinion and that it is no longer valuable. I'm not saying that I agree with this individual's action, but I most certainly agree with an expression of moral.
S4M
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Originally Posted by seven4mankind
Southside,
The day we no longer care what one another's political, moral or ethical opinion is, is the day I hang my wings on the bedpost. Signing up does not mean that we no longer have an opinion and that it is no longer valuable. I'm not saying that I agree with this individual's action, but I most certainly agree with an expression of moral.
S4M
The day we no longer care what one another's political, moral or ethical opinion is, is the day I hang my wings on the bedpost. Signing up does not mean that we no longer have an opinion and that it is no longer valuable. I'm not saying that I agree with this individual's action, but I most certainly agree with an expression of moral.
S4M
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, I am grateful to Mr Smith for attempting to refocuss everyone's mind on the legality of the original decision to go to war. If the Govt has nothing to hide, show us the 2 sides of A4 paper that contain the reasons for the change of mind of the Attorney General.
I live in hope but I am not holding my breath.
I live in hope but I am not holding my breath.
Hellbound
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S4M
please don't confuse me with Southside (!).
Not saying that people should not be permitted a moral point of view, just that they should limit how far they take that right. If we don't stamp on this sort of thing, how far will it go. "Sir, Sir, I think the Argies have a legal right to the Falklands and I don't want to go on my 4-mth Det" Reply "That's alright airman, you are allowed your point of view, we won't make you go...".
Personally I believe the case for the war on Iraq was questionnable and poorly thought through. However, I will go when told and do my job to the best of my ability (which is pretty damn good - hoorah for me!) and leave the legal stuff to other people. If I felt that strongly about it I would take my pension and go and be a Tory MP, but I have no taste for PVC and oranges so I will stay where I am.
please don't confuse me with Southside (!).
Not saying that people should not be permitted a moral point of view, just that they should limit how far they take that right. If we don't stamp on this sort of thing, how far will it go. "Sir, Sir, I think the Argies have a legal right to the Falklands and I don't want to go on my 4-mth Det" Reply "That's alright airman, you are allowed your point of view, we won't make you go...".
Personally I believe the case for the war on Iraq was questionnable and poorly thought through. However, I will go when told and do my job to the best of my ability (which is pretty damn good - hoorah for me!) and leave the legal stuff to other people. If I felt that strongly about it I would take my pension and go and be a Tory MP, but I have no taste for PVC and oranges so I will stay where I am.
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It is not up to a servicemen or women to decide what is moral, your trained killers and hired thugs. Your job is to do excactly as your told and to do as best as your ability, training and equipment allows.
You are there for when parliment cannot do their job properly, you are the final resort.
If you think you have a right to decide what is right and what is wrong then I'm sure there are many nice and comfortable jobs with BA, Qauntas etc.
Or do you think that mutiny is a viable way of deciding military matters?
You are there for when parliment cannot do their job properly, you are the final resort.
If you think you have a right to decide what is right and what is wrong then I'm sure there are many nice and comfortable jobs with BA, Qauntas etc.
Or do you think that mutiny is a viable way of deciding military matters?
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Originally Posted by South Bound
Skunk
'Trained killers and hired thugs'?
Oh please do grow up or just go away.
'Trained killers and hired thugs'?
Oh please do grow up or just go away.
What is a serviceman or women trained to do? Defend the country, which will require the deaths of an enemy. As a serviceman I was trained to kill an enemy person, not send them home with a smack on the wrist. Perhaps you should have realised this before you signed the dotted line.
"Ohhhh Mr recruiter, will your lot really teach me to fly jolly fast planes and see the world?"
"Yes we will but now and then you may be asked to shoot down human beings and turn them into charcoal, and also bomb people using cluster munitions and other nasty stuff as developed by Huntings".
You are payed by the government to do things that they are too scared to do. Now grow up, smell the coffee and live with it.
Civvies in uniform is just a joke you realise? It's not all tea and medals, now and then you have to do nasty things to other people.