Protection of young people in the Air Cadets
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Protection of young people in the Air Cadets
I understand that civilians wishing to serve on a VGS are subject to scrutiny through the usual CRB channels-quite rightly so. However, it is rumoured that personnel already serving within HM Armed Forces, be they commissioned or non-commissioned are not subject to such background checks. Why should this be so when there have been several well publicised cases of senior officers who have been found guilty of improper behaviour in the company of young people.
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Any member of HM forces wishing to assist with cadet activities needs to have an "Enhanced" CRB clearance.
This can be actioned via whatever they call PSF these days.
Additionally they need written authority from their OC.
For normal camp type activities there has to be a member of cadet staff present, thus removing the need for CRB.
This can be actioned via whatever they call PSF these days.
Additionally they need written authority from their OC.
For normal camp type activities there has to be a member of cadet staff present, thus removing the need for CRB.
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We've got a youngster coming to our place for 'work experience'. The pre-arrival pack we got said that anyone who isn't allowed to work with kids is supposed to declare it before said child arrives. Hardly thorough, is it? On the other hand, we have to get him to sign the Official Secrets Act...
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Unbelievable-the weight of preserving national security placed on kid's shoulders and yet apparent loopholes in their protection-whatever next!
It's not surprising that certain agencies only pay lipservice to procedural matters.
It's not surprising that certain agencies only pay lipservice to procedural matters.
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It's just taken about 10 months to get MoD CRB clearance for a padre for an ACO squadron. She's already cleared by the CRB in her role as C of E minister, but the MoD would not accept it.
The time taken to obtain CRB clearance is a major issue in recruiting adult staff.
The time taken to obtain CRB clearance is a major issue in recruiting adult staff.
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I am CRB checked because 'er indoors is a childminder (everyone over a certain age in the house has to checked).
But that CRB check is not good enough for the ATC and I have to have another one done
Cynic in me wonders if that is anything to do with the double fee that the CRB agency will get for the 2 checks......
But that CRB check is not good enough for the ATC and I have to have another one done
Cynic in me wonders if that is anything to do with the double fee that the CRB agency will get for the 2 checks......
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Yes that is a bit odd, why does it have to be duplicated for similar circumstances. I had to get an enhanced CRB check to help out at my childs local cub pack. I then had to go through the whole procedure again, to work the occasional weekend on an AEF. However, rather oversafe than devastated by the actions of some of the wierdos occupying this planet.
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While I would agree with being extra safe, you would not believe the number of genuinely enthusiastic staff we have that just get fed up of waiting for a CRB check to come through.
Quite frankly, I don't blame them for leaving after six months of waiting. When you're working full time who wants to spend their valuable weekends off sitting around unable to get involved just because some pen-pusher can't be motivated enough to push his pen a little quicker?
Quite frankly, I don't blame them for leaving after six months of waiting. When you're working full time who wants to spend their valuable weekends off sitting around unable to get involved just because some pen-pusher can't be motivated enough to push his pen a little quicker?
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I was told by a Wing SO (so it must be true) that the Army staff the Mil CRB at Imber Barracks in York. He reckoned that they prioritise ACF applications over ATC (and possibly SCC as well). Sounds good, but far more likely that it's not staffed/resourced properly, hence the backlog. No point in spending more money on it, as there's no operational advantage in doing so, will be their thinking.
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The CRB check taken by ACO personel is very very through, and as others have said takes months, sometimes more than a year if you are really unlucky!
I have this clearance, and just started a job with a large company. they having nothing to do with young people, but require a CRB check. This is due back tomorrow, and I applied last thursday. My ACO CRB check didnt count because it was for a different purpose.
Funny system - CRB doesnt apply in Northern Ireland, why bother!
I have this clearance, and just started a job with a large company. they having nothing to do with young people, but require a CRB check. This is due back tomorrow, and I applied last thursday. My ACO CRB check didnt count because it was for a different purpose.
Funny system - CRB doesnt apply in Northern Ireland, why bother!
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I find it hard to imagine that the CRB check for a teacher or Police officer is less thorough than for a Cadet instructor/officer.
Having jumped through this hoop several times there are a number of slight inaccuracies/misleading comments here.
There's no such thing as one CRB check not being good enough for another organisation. It's not the case that the MOD refuses to accept the child minder's CRB check.
The system that has been established (by the government) allows for a CRB check for one position only. Section B on the form clearly states "Details of position for which Disclosure is being requested". This is to prevent one CRB check being carried out which produces a negative result and then the applicant using this old CRB check as justification for a position of trust when they may have commited offences subsequent to the old check. By limiting the CRB check to one position only it forces the employer to make a fresh check thus revealing the most up-to-date results. Thus the MOD are actually carrying out their responsibilities quite properly when they ask for a new check.
Now I agree that this seems like paperwork for paperwork sake but it is for a good reason. The root cause of the problem is the length of time that a CRB check takes. Imagine that one could be achieved in 24 hours. Would you complain so hard then? I bet not. I fail to believe that a CRB check is anything more than a database search that should take 5 mins max, how this can turn into a 10 month marathon is the real issue here. Not the requirement for fresh checks each time.
Also, I'm somewhat confused by vigilant_spacey's comments:
How can you possibly know when it is due back? There is no system in place to inform the subject of the CRB that it has been completed or that it is even being processed until the results certificate arrives. I can only assume that this has been told to you in error by the company's HR department or this isn't the same CRB check the rest of us are talking about. The real CRB check is titled "Disclosure Application Form" and has a purple logo on the top right corner and a barcode next to it.
just my 2 cents
There's no such thing as one CRB check not being good enough for another organisation. It's not the case that the MOD refuses to accept the child minder's CRB check.
The system that has been established (by the government) allows for a CRB check for one position only. Section B on the form clearly states "Details of position for which Disclosure is being requested". This is to prevent one CRB check being carried out which produces a negative result and then the applicant using this old CRB check as justification for a position of trust when they may have commited offences subsequent to the old check. By limiting the CRB check to one position only it forces the employer to make a fresh check thus revealing the most up-to-date results. Thus the MOD are actually carrying out their responsibilities quite properly when they ask for a new check.
Now I agree that this seems like paperwork for paperwork sake but it is for a good reason. The root cause of the problem is the length of time that a CRB check takes. Imagine that one could be achieved in 24 hours. Would you complain so hard then? I bet not. I fail to believe that a CRB check is anything more than a database search that should take 5 mins max, how this can turn into a 10 month marathon is the real issue here. Not the requirement for fresh checks each time.
Also, I'm somewhat confused by vigilant_spacey's comments:
I have this clearance, and just started a job with a large company. they having nothing to do with young people, but require a CRB check. This is due back tomorrow, and I applied last thursday.
just my 2 cents
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One thing is really worrying here. When I was looking at flying with the air cadets, I was told by the CO of a gliding school that it was a waste of time, overly bureaucratic and that allowances would be made because of my service background. Who is making these rules, the security services, the MOD or the CO's. On checking this with the ACO it seemed that there were several sets of rules-some written, some unwritten; depending on who you were. Case for debate?
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The key here, I'm led to believe, is if there is regular, frequent contact, someone popping down once, now and again to do a spot of lecturing doesn’t need a CRB – That’s from Cranwell Seniors course last week
I don't think the bloke in the front of a glider would need one
I don't think the bloke in the front of a glider would need one
Some interesting points raised, and my take on them:
Why repeat them/ force new checks? People can (and do ) commit crimes AFTER being checked and cleared. Teachers now looking at 3-Years, some LEAs 6 monthly for non fulltimers.
Irregular visits? No need for any checks if the visitor is not left alone with kids- not solo so to speak. The buck stops with the teacher/instructor/unit.
CRB check not 'good enough' for an organisation? Standard Disclosure isn't good enough for working with kids- must be enhanced. That might be the confusion. (Not in the childminder example, granted)
Why repeat them/ force new checks? People can (and do ) commit crimes AFTER being checked and cleared. Teachers now looking at 3-Years, some LEAs 6 monthly for non fulltimers.
Irregular visits? No need for any checks if the visitor is not left alone with kids- not solo so to speak. The buck stops with the teacher/instructor/unit.
CRB check not 'good enough' for an organisation? Standard Disclosure isn't good enough for working with kids- must be enhanced. That might be the confusion. (Not in the childminder example, granted)
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A colleague of mine left the RAF after a full career which included a current enhanced vetting (his, you couldn't get any higher). He applied for a job at an area HQ with the ATC [J Class commission?] for which he had to be security vetted. They would not accept his current vetting, even though it's the same people doing it.
10 month later he got the go-ahead to work. Talk about a gross waste of the taxpayers' money?
CRB checks are also required for those in the health service who may have to have contact with children - doctors, nurses, etc. That is administered by the local Primary Care trust, who hold the records. Now before you employ a nurse in the local surgery, you have to wait for the check to come through - weeks and weeks of waiting involved.
The system is not keeping up with demand, because the resources or funding have not been allocated. Central gov seems content to make up these laws as they go along, without fully considering the consequences. The country is in danger of grinding slowly to a halt under the weight of under-resourced bureaucracy.
10 month later he got the go-ahead to work. Talk about a gross waste of the taxpayers' money?
CRB checks are also required for those in the health service who may have to have contact with children - doctors, nurses, etc. That is administered by the local Primary Care trust, who hold the records. Now before you employ a nurse in the local surgery, you have to wait for the check to come through - weeks and weeks of waiting involved.
The system is not keeping up with demand, because the resources or funding have not been allocated. Central gov seems content to make up these laws as they go along, without fully considering the consequences. The country is in danger of grinding slowly to a halt under the weight of under-resourced bureaucracy.
The ATC used to do all its own security checks through the PSS, following filling in duplicate a form 177 ident. This was happening in the 70s. I know of at least one person who was told told to go and never return to the unit on instructions from PSS. The current system is a total shambles. I work for the NHS and enhanced CRB checks for urgently required staff takes weeks if not months. I suppose it saves maney, but it does p**s off applicants, who lay the blame at our door.
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I might have missed something here. AEF pilots ARE background checked to work with young people- FACT. Is is not thru MOD channels, but throught he 'normal' child workers checking channels. The process thru the normal channels is generally swifter if you are current commisioned serving (unsure why) but the level of check is the same as any civillian.
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For normal camp type activities there has to be a member of cadet staff present, thus removing the need for CRB
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This thread started stating that VGS peeps may not need a CRB, other posters have stated that it probably isnt needed.
HELLO - given that the guys in the aircraft (AEF and VGS) are probably closer to the cadets for longer than the normal air cadet guys, I would say makes the answer obvious.
Simple answer - if you are civvy or serving you need a CRB to work with the cadets in an unsupervised role. That means that all the pilots in VGS or AEF have been fully vetted. Quite right too given the trusted position we hold.
Hope that helps and helps stop further theories.
HELLO - given that the guys in the aircraft (AEF and VGS) are probably closer to the cadets for longer than the normal air cadet guys, I would say makes the answer obvious.
Simple answer - if you are civvy or serving you need a CRB to work with the cadets in an unsupervised role. That means that all the pilots in VGS or AEF have been fully vetted. Quite right too given the trusted position we hold.
Hope that helps and helps stop further theories.