Puff the Magic Dragon

[Skunkerama]

Does anyone know if there is any video available of Puff the Magic Dragon doing it's thing? Or the more recent Spectre?

[airborne_artist]

There was some footage on the web of one taking out a "technical" - I think in Afghanistan. I remember being shown over one in Hurlbert Field in 84 - the recoil from the 105mm sends the aircraft 10' sideways, we were told.

[Mr-AEO]

I hope they were ALL valid targets?

It's amazing how TI has advanced so much it's capable of discriminating between 'guilty terrorist b&&tards and innocent children'

[SASless]

Like the 16 year old wife of Al Zarqawi for instance?

There is a world of difference between killing an innocent person and intentionally killing an innocent person.

Perhaps you missed that small insignificant variation between our tactics and the Terrorists.

One is a tragedy the other is their way of waging war.

But then that is lost on you too.

Start complaining about the people murdered by the Terrorists and quit banging your drum about the other.

[Mr-AEO]

Quite.

You are so marred by tragedy that you think it is acceptable?

[iPodder]

SASless,

Innocent is exactly that. There is no justification for killing innocents.
And as for banging drums, your country was none to concerned about terrorism when Boston, Chicago and New York were funding the IRA; or was that also a different kind of terrorism??

[Occasional Aviator]

SASless,
has it occurred to you to wonder why these 'terrorists' are fighting? Clearly Zarqawi is a legitimate target, but to kill uninvolved people at the same time will only increase the anti-imperialist cause.

[SASless]

Think back over the RAF's history and think about the Battle of Britain flight and what the Lanc means to the citizens of Dresden and a host of other cities. I am sure a flyover of a couple of Japanese cities by a B-29 would be similarly received.

Warfare today is much less indiscriminate on targeting and thus minimizes the killing of people. People are going to be killed in war and terrorist attacks.

I fail to see any of you arguing the same case about what effect the WTC attacks had on us. Think maybe the Terrorists kicked off a scrum they will rightfully regret when it is all said and done?

The object of war is to break things and kill people....always has been and always will be. If the Terrorists surround themselves with children and innocents, who is really to blame for the deaths?

[Occasional Aviator]

Your points are well made, BUT...

There seems to be a perception, particularly in the US, that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are against an organised organisation of 'Terrorists', and once we've captured or killed all the bad guys (or "kicked their asses"), things will be OK.

I don't subscribe to this. I think (and it is a personal opinion) that fighting them as if it were open war (ie permitting collateral damage and deaths) only begets more 'Terrorists' as people lose brothers, sons, fathers, sisters, mothers and daughters to Coaltion action.

The only way to really stop it is to take away people's reason to fight.

[BEagle]

Actually, a lot of this 'US supports the Irish Republican Army' paranoia came from a simple misunderstanding between the cultures of the US and the UK.

'IRA contributions' in the US refers to Individual Retirement Accounts! These are plans which allow people to make contributions each year if they meet the contribution requirements. If aged 50 or older, they can contribute even more to their IRAs.

When MacDonalds employees arranged a corporate IRA contribution system, the false rumour spread around the UK that 'MacDonalds supports the Irish Republican Army'....

[Compressorstall]

I did think that this forum was for military aviators, not Daily Mail readers. Contrary to popular reporting, it is not being fought as open war but as a restrained war where it is hard to match the response to an enemy, organised or otherwise, who simply melts back into the local populace. It is not Malaya or Borneo, it is not Northern Ireland, it is war in the 21st Century. We fight an enemy trying to use actionable intelligence and precision, something the indescriminate enemies do not do in reply.

Robert E. Lee once said that it is good that war is so terrible, lest we become too fond of it.

[Occasional Aviator]

I speak from first-hand experience and not from popular reporting, and yes, I am a military aviator and NO, I do not read the Daily Mail. However, I think I'm entitled to an opinion.

[SASless]

OA,

I would suggest the experts state your concept is but "one" of the things that must be done.

Just as providing security and a safe environment for the "Hearts and Minds" programs to be carried out. Until the NGO's, Civil Affairs, sewer workers, electricians, and teachers can return to work and rebuild the infrastructure and teach children, render medical care, build roads, your method alone has no chance of succeeding.

Until the Radical Fundamentalists cease poisoning young minds with a religion of hate and murder there will be conflict.

Perhaps all of those contributions in New York and Boston came from descendants of the Irish that were victimized by the English all those years ago, but that was brought about by a deprivation of freedom and not the defeat of a tyrannical regime that resulted in millions becoming free.

Thus comparing NI and Iraq and Afghanistan are illogical.

[eagle 86]

SASless,
You are never going to convince these people - in their eyes the West has never been right since the end of WW2. I ask the question - 80 plus INNOCENT Aussies were killed in one attack in Bali - but somehow that's our fault - we are not allowed to adopt the opposition's actions that so many on here seem to think are justified for them because we kill their supposed innocents.
We are losing and will continue to lose because the opposition see that we are soft and vulnerable. Rest assured the Western way of life that we cherish now will not exist in a generation's time. Your grandchildren will be dominated by another culture - but you won't care - you'll be dead.
GAGS
E86

[Occasional Aviator]

My method? Don't remember suggesting one - however I do agree.

Don't get me wrong, I do think we should go after the bad guys, and I have done my share towards that. I just prefer the british way to the US way (and I have seen both and operated under both commands in operational theatres).

True enough, UK and US AORs are different in character. And I would not for a moment compare Iraq and Afghanistan with NI. However, if you want to engender respect for life and the rule of law, you have to walk the walk yourself.

[rab-k]

Originally Posted by Occasional Aviator

The only way to really stop it is to take away people's reason to fight.

True, but that often means you either destroy then enemy so completely and utterly they can no longer wage a campaign of war/terrorism against you. Alternatively, the enemy wins - if not outright, then at least in the form of substantial concessions. The third option is stalemate.

What the US/Coalition can offer in the way of concessions beats me. The 'enemy' will never be able to win in the normal sense of victory and outright destruction would also seem to be a non-starter. That only leaves one probable outcome - stalemate. Neither side can win, but neither will contemplate the alternative.

We could be seeing a lot more of the same for a long time to come.

[Melchett01]

True, but that often means you either destroy then enemy so completely and utterly they can no longer wage a campaign of war/terrorism against you. Alternatively, the enemy wins - if not outright, then at least in the form of substantial concessions. The third option is stalemate.

Not at all. The traditional approach in the west, especially western Europe with its history of various terrorist groups & factions has been one of Protect, Penetrate & Politics. To me that is pretty obvious - protect the population, penetrate the terrorist groups and engage through the political process.

Unfortunately, that won't work in the current climate. As much as Tony & George are trying to portray this as good vs evil, people like UBL & Zarqawi are doing their best to portray it as a clash of civilizations with their arguments that the differences between Islam and the rest of the world are intractable and that it is a fight to the death for supremacy.

What we have - belatedly - realised is that to be effective you need a dual approach, that of hearts and minds coupled with biblical violence to act as a deterent. To simply destroy the enemy will not work; Northern Ireland proved that - unrestrained targeting simply produces a Hydra effect - arrest / kill one and the rest pop up to take their place.

To try and engage solely by politics is fine, as long as your enemy has a tangible end state that can be achieved through negotiation. When you are of the belief that anything other than the most puritanical form of Islam is wrong, there is no negotiation. It is an ideological conflict that almost mirrors that of the Cold War - hard action will not defeat a concept or mind set.

As such, you need to wipe off the map those that choose to fight you whilst simultaneously engaging with the potentially disaffected and try and persuade them that beheading every westerner that crosses your doorstep won't necessarilly solve the issue.

Unfortunatley, the situation we find ourselves in now has no stalemate. We will either be fighting for the next decade, or we will manage the problem but not eradicate it, largely due to the approach we are taking at the moment coupled with the lack of understanding. This is unfortunately a win-lsoe situation. Either we persuade (not bomb) our opponent into realising that we can all live together in peace( even if its you stay on your continent and we'll stay on ours) or the war continues indefinately. Both sides are out for a win - a score draw isn't on the cards this time round!

[Roadster280]

Written by persons unknown in 6 foot high letters on a cliff at Bournemouth seafront:

"F*CK BLAIR BOMB MECCA"

Discuss.

Interesting AC-130 video footage!

[7gcbc]

Occasional Aviator, bravo!

if you will sir, allow me to quote you.

True enough, UK and US AORs are different in character. And I would not for a moment compare Iraq and Afghanistan with NI. However, if you want to engender respect for life and the rule of law, you have to walk the walk yourself.

I don't see any further reason for discussion ?

[eagle 86]

7gcbc
...... and the opposition will continue to laugh their tits off at us!
GAGS
E86