Raid on Chemical Bomb factory in London today?

[Blacksheep]

Do a google search on the term mens rea.
Example from the Emerald Toilet: If a weapons cache is found on a farmer's land, it would be incumbent upon the prosecution to establish that the landowner was aware of its presence in order for the court to render him culpable.

A personal computer with log-in requirements, found in a room in your house complete with evidence of recent use is a different matter than an arms stash on your land. A PC is more like a filing cabinet - in fact, it is a filing cabinet - and knowing whats in your locked cabinet drawers is a different matter. It would contain among other things, emails addressed to yourself and sent by yourself. 'Mens Rea' can be presumed in such circumstances.

Once its established that there is a loaded .38 Special revolver in your bedside drawer its up to you to prove that you didn't know it was there.

[Washington_Irving]

Originally Posted by Blacksheep

A personal computer with log-in requirements, found in a room in your house complete with evidence of recent use is a different matter than an arms stash on your land. A PC is more like a filing cabinet - in fact, it is a filing cabinet - and knowing whats in your locked cabinet drawers is a different matter. It would contain among other things, emails addressed to yourself and sent by yourself. 'Mens Rea' can be presumed in such circumstances.

Once its established that there is a loaded .38 Special revolver in your bedside drawer its up to you to prove that you didn't know it was there.

Well, aren't we one for fuzzy analogies? You're presuming an awful lot. You don't know if the PC is password protected and you don't know if the there files were visible from windows, whether they were hidden in some innocuous place by a previous owner (like where most pads keep their porn stash from wifey ), if they were in the recycle bin, or had been deleted but remained on the hard disk without being overwritten.

Mens rea can never be presumed, it must be established beyond a reasonable doubt and the burden of proof rests, as it should, with the prosecution. If the prosecution cannot demonstrate that the accused had knowledge of the presence of kiddie porn, then the accused walk.

As for your filing cabinet analogy, according to my antivirus software I have in the region of a quarter of a million files on my computer, and my hard drive is only a quarter full. Would it be reasonable to argue that I should know what each individual file is and what it does?

[SASless]

If one has a shortcut to the kiddie porn on his desktop....one's arguments might be very weak would you agree?

These hypotheticals are nice.....let's wait to see how it turns out in court.

[Dogfish]

Is this going to be like the last chemical bomb factory they ''found'' then shot a guy in the prossess? The two guys involved are still living in a four star hotel while their house is put back together. And how can we forget the 'ricin plot'. Me thinks the little boy has cried wolf one too many times! I am starting to think that the British security services would struggle too find their own arseholes with both hands and a map.

[Colonal Mustard]

Dogfish you lost me mate........(it isnt hard i know)

[Washington_Irving]

Originally Posted by SASless

If one has a shortcut to the kiddie porn on his desktop....one's arguments might be very weak would you agree?
These hypotheticals are nice.....let's wait to see how it turns out in court.

My argument, SASless, was not to protest the guy's innocence, but rather to point out that the case might be more complex than Blacksheep suggests. I was demonstrating that the mere possession of the images (the actus reus) would be insufficient grounds to secure a conviction. The prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy knew that the images were on his computer. So no, I don't think it is weak. Obviously, if one such image was acting as his wallpaper it would be fairly easy to demonstrate mens rea, in which case I would be more than happy for the guy to be thrown among the 'honest' armed robbers, murderers and gangsters in the general prison population.

[phil gollin]

Originally Posted by Dogfish

Is this going to be like the last chemical bomb factory they ''found'' then shot a guy in the prossess? The two guys involved are still living in a four star hotel while their house is put back together. And how can we forget the 'ricin plot'. Me thinks the little boy has cried wolf one too many times! I am starting to think that the British security services would struggle too find their own arseholes with both hands and a map.

I THINK that you have forgotten that this is about "the last chemical bomb factory they ''found'' then shot a guy in the prossess"

See above

[teeteringhead]

Sadly one is now v. suspicious of the Met. "Kiddie Porn" is these days about the worst thing you can accuse someone of ..... and whatever the result, there will be those who say: "No smoke without fire"

And of the ND, is the going (military) rate still one month's pay as a fine .... I guess that'd be quite a lot for a firearms officer........