Ethics Training in Iraq
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Ethics Training in Iraq
Do they seriously think a powerpoint presentation is either going to solve the problem or in any way mitigate the disastrous effect on their reputation?....
The Times: US orders coalition troops to take lessons in the ethics of battlefield
THE US military has ordered all 150,000 coalition troops in Iraq to undergo a crash course in battlefield morals, values and ethics within the next month, as it tries to repair its image after the suspected killing of 24 civilians in al- Haditha.
General George Casey, the top US commander in Iraq, called for the emergency tutorials in “warrior values” after leaks from the al-Haditha investigation suggested that US Marines went on a shooting rampage in the western Iraqi town after one of their men was killed by a roadside bomb in November........
British officers privately expressed surprise at their inclusion in the morals programme. The 7,200 British troops in Iraq have largely escaped charges of being trigger-happy. “Our rules of engagement are much tighter than the American version and there are differences in approach between the British and American troops,” one senior military source told The Times.
The US military appears to have learnt the lessons from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in 2004, when the Pentagon was taken aback by the public outcry after photos of humiliated Iraqi prisoners were obtained by the media. This time it appears eager to shape the debate before the al- Haditha investigation reports.
It announced yesterday that commanders had been directed “to conduct core warrior values training, highlighting the importance of adhering to legal, moral and ethical standards on the battlefield”. The training will be based on “a slide presentation with training vignettes”...........
The Times: US orders coalition troops to take lessons in the ethics of battlefield
THE US military has ordered all 150,000 coalition troops in Iraq to undergo a crash course in battlefield morals, values and ethics within the next month, as it tries to repair its image after the suspected killing of 24 civilians in al- Haditha.
General George Casey, the top US commander in Iraq, called for the emergency tutorials in “warrior values” after leaks from the al-Haditha investigation suggested that US Marines went on a shooting rampage in the western Iraqi town after one of their men was killed by a roadside bomb in November........
British officers privately expressed surprise at their inclusion in the morals programme. The 7,200 British troops in Iraq have largely escaped charges of being trigger-happy. “Our rules of engagement are much tighter than the American version and there are differences in approach between the British and American troops,” one senior military source told The Times.
The US military appears to have learnt the lessons from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in 2004, when the Pentagon was taken aback by the public outcry after photos of humiliated Iraqi prisoners were obtained by the media. This time it appears eager to shape the debate before the al- Haditha investigation reports.
It announced yesterday that commanders had been directed “to conduct core warrior values training, highlighting the importance of adhering to legal, moral and ethical standards on the battlefield”. The training will be based on “a slide presentation with training vignettes”...........
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Ethics v War Crimes
Given the now constant revelations about American attrocities in Iraq, and the quite grizzly online 'home videos from Iraq' in which Americans proudly demonstrate the use of exessive force, is it actually legal for British forces to work alongside with and support American operations in Iraq?
Is there an official line on what actions British troops are to take when witnessing American war crimes?
The SAS soldier who refused to work with Americans on the grounds of their inability to recognise or treat Iraqis as human beings was removed from service and, as far as I know, his allegations were not investigated by Britain or America.
Is that the official line, are war crimes now ok?
Is there an official line on what actions British troops are to take when witnessing American war crimes?
The SAS soldier who refused to work with Americans on the grounds of their inability to recognise or treat Iraqis as human beings was removed from service and, as far as I know, his allegations were not investigated by Britain or America.
Is that the official line, are war crimes now ok?
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I rolled my eyes when I heard "the US-led forces will receive..." I immediately saw another opening for our own EO Politikal Officers who only got away with permission for a one-off patronising course last time. We can either say to the Yanks that our lot don't need it or bend to public opinion and do it anyway. Say no or cave...hhmm, anyone got a fiver?
Maybe we could make it an annual thing and add to our list of other made-up courses, maybe even do it seven weeks and one week before going away somewhere, like the running up and down the gym thing!
Embrace Pointlessness
Maybe we could make it an annual thing and add to our list of other made-up courses, maybe even do it seven weeks and one week before going away somewhere, like the running up and down the gym thing!
Embrace Pointlessness
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Questions
When everybody has been done, do they award themselves an IIP certificate to hang in the HQ tent?
Will there be a refresher every 6 months?
Will it be ok just to watch the video if you are not a desert warrior to get a tick in the box?
Megawat - good point - I do believe that when you are under combined rules of engagement, and you witness a war crime, you have to quickly consider whether NATO, UN or National rules (whichever has most authority), apply in your decision to use all means possible to de-escalate the situation, even if it means dis-abling (shooting) the perpertrator
Just remember to spend 10 mins or so to make the correct challenge and read out all the details of whatever colour card you carry these days to advise them of their rights so you don't get sued
When everybody has been done, do they award themselves an IIP certificate to hang in the HQ tent?
Will there be a refresher every 6 months?
Will it be ok just to watch the video if you are not a desert warrior to get a tick in the box?
Megawat - good point - I do believe that when you are under combined rules of engagement, and you witness a war crime, you have to quickly consider whether NATO, UN or National rules (whichever has most authority), apply in your decision to use all means possible to de-escalate the situation, even if it means dis-abling (shooting) the perpertrator
Just remember to spend 10 mins or so to make the correct challenge and read out all the details of whatever colour card you carry these days to advise them of their rights so you don't get sued
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I suppose that the presentation starts with Bliar or Bush asking the audience "Is it ethicly correct that we invaded Iraq?"
"Hell no, of course it isn't"
"So go hog wild guys and kill a few more civilians in the name of freedom"
"Just leave the oil, that's ours...mmkay?"
"Hell no, of course it isn't"
"So go hog wild guys and kill a few more civilians in the name of freedom"
"Just leave the oil, that's ours...mmkay?"
You would have thought that they would have learned the lessons from the Little Big Horn....
Coming at a time when a scandal is about to erupt concerning the USMC, this is too little, too late.
I feel genuine sympathy for the good guys of the USMC who will undoubtedly be tarred with the same brush, in the public eye, as those who allegedly committed this outrage.
But images of the local area around Camp Pendelton shown on UK television news a few moments ago reveal a disturbing mentality - that is, if they are reasonably representative. "We support our boys doin' whatever they had to do" is little removed from "Befehl ist befehl"... Someone needs to weed out the steroid-chewing 'Hoo-ah' thugs who like nothing more than shooting at anything which moves - and to emphasise the reason for their true existence.
Either that or disband the whole Corps. Your choice......
Coming at a time when a scandal is about to erupt concerning the USMC, this is too little, too late.
I feel genuine sympathy for the good guys of the USMC who will undoubtedly be tarred with the same brush, in the public eye, as those who allegedly committed this outrage.
But images of the local area around Camp Pendelton shown on UK television news a few moments ago reveal a disturbing mentality - that is, if they are reasonably representative. "We support our boys doin' whatever they had to do" is little removed from "Befehl ist befehl"... Someone needs to weed out the steroid-chewing 'Hoo-ah' thugs who like nothing more than shooting at anything which moves - and to emphasise the reason for their true existence.
Either that or disband the whole Corps. Your choice......
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Perhaps we could translate the presentation into Arabic and have it airdropped over terrorist/insurgent hotbeds! That way they might try to act in the some cordial manner and provide the same respects on the battlefield. (sarcasim off)
There are many armies throughout history who have had this sort of thing happen. I for one will not give up on the USMC just because of this (if it's true). They are an excellent fighting force with a great history. If this did happen then it points to a break down in the chain of command. That would be the point of concern for me and needs to be corrected.
There are many armies throughout history who have had this sort of thing happen. I for one will not give up on the USMC just because of this (if it's true). They are an excellent fighting force with a great history. If this did happen then it points to a break down in the chain of command. That would be the point of concern for me and needs to be corrected.
Beagle, I know a fishing trip when I see it. Or in this case smell it.
The possible actions of a few in no way condemn the whole.
Before any of you get too full of yourselves, lest you not forget the actions of some Brits in NI when under the extreme stress they were under.
The possible actions of a few in no way condemn the whole.
Before any of you get too full of yourselves, lest you not forget the actions of some Brits in NI when under the extreme stress they were under.
I'm sorry Westie, my memory's not what it was. Just refresh my memory about the occasion on which uniformed British troops shot 11 members of the same family (including pre-school children and babies) in Northern Ireland...... Or when we executed civilians with shots to the back of the head after a patrol came under fire..... Or when our boys were stupid enough to let a TV crew film them finishing off a wounded civilian prostrate on the floor?
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If someone says "it's freezing in here" do you get a thermometer out to check it's 0 degrees celcius? Why can't an offhand comment be taken as such, or does everything written and said have to be in po-faced seriousness, an absolute statement of opinion or fact? Black humour is as valid as any other form of jest. Some people need boundaries to work to, some need boundaries to jump.
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Pot to kettle
Originally Posted by Jackonicko
I'm sorry Westie, my memory's not what it was. Just refresh my memory about the occasion on which uniformed British troops shot 11 members of the same family (including pre-school children and babies) in Northern Ireland...... Or when we executed civilians with shots to the back of the head after a patrol came under fire..... Or when our boys were stupid enough to let a TV crew film them finishing off a wounded civilian prostrate on the floor?
jacko,
As too many of our reality shows might say, "Don't go there!"
How about some of the techniques used in the suppression of the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya, some of the less than honorable escapades in India during the Raj, some collective punishments in Malaya? Oh, and isn't there some controversy still about a 14 yr old boy that might or might not have had a rifle in NI?
Please don't take my posting as a slur on the BA or HM forces. I think they are first-rate. BUT, there have been incidents with UK forces just as heinous (sp?) as the apparent Marine snafu last year. Recall the recent video taping of the teenagers getting a beating by HMG forces?
I don't condone what, apparently, that SQUAD did. But to brand all of the USMC, or all of US forces with that stigma is ridiculous. Most of them are doing the best they can in a sh*t situation. How many of us might do the same in the same circumstances? Hopefully, not many, but it is worth considering.
Now, what bothers me most about the incident is the apparent cover-up. That's worrisome.
(Edited to add: Oh, and you forgot throw in the Abu Ghraib mess in our litany of stupidity.
Last edited by brickhistory; 3rd Jun 2006 at 20:59.
I agree with you, SASless (despite what Westie might think).
The cover up (if there was one) cannot be condoned. But, perhaps it was trouble making TV journos and selective interviewing, I did find the remarks made by the locals near Camp Pendelton very disturbing. They gave the interviewer the impression that whatever the squad did, it must have been acceptable....because they were Marines.
The Marines they interviewed bore no resemblance to the folk who helped us out so well at MCAS El Toro many years ago.
The cover up (if there was one) cannot be condoned. But, perhaps it was trouble making TV journos and selective interviewing, I did find the remarks made by the locals near Camp Pendelton very disturbing. They gave the interviewer the impression that whatever the squad did, it must have been acceptable....because they were Marines.
The Marines they interviewed bore no resemblance to the folk who helped us out so well at MCAS El Toro many years ago.
Westie,
The world is shaded in various hues of grey. It is not just black and white.
I am not suggesting that the UK Armed Forces' behaviour has always been beyond reproach, nor that we have not engaged in brutal and even illegal behaviour.
But you compared USMC murders of large groups of civilians with "the actions of some Brits in NI when under the extreme stress they were under."
That's not justified, or fair, and should not go unchallenged.
Nor, Brick, have I seen any evidence of that kind or level of indiscriminate, cowardly violence in Kenya or Malaya 50 years ago. And while beating teenagers is deplorable, in my skewed moral code, it doesn't quite equate with shooting infants.
And, Confucious, the real enemy are the bottom feeding scum whose behaviour besmirches the reputation of a once proud military formation - not those who comment on or report it.
The world is shaded in various hues of grey. It is not just black and white.
I am not suggesting that the UK Armed Forces' behaviour has always been beyond reproach, nor that we have not engaged in brutal and even illegal behaviour.
But you compared USMC murders of large groups of civilians with "the actions of some Brits in NI when under the extreme stress they were under."
That's not justified, or fair, and should not go unchallenged.
Nor, Brick, have I seen any evidence of that kind or level of indiscriminate, cowardly violence in Kenya or Malaya 50 years ago. And while beating teenagers is deplorable, in my skewed moral code, it doesn't quite equate with shooting infants.
And, Confucious, the real enemy are the bottom feeding scum whose behaviour besmirches the reputation of a once proud military formation - not those who comment on or report it.
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko
Nor, Brick, have I seen any evidence of that kind or level of indiscriminate, cowardly violence in Kenya or Malaya 50 years ago. And while beating teenagers is deplorable, in my skewed moral code, it doesn't quite equate with shooting infants.
BUT, that is off topic and away from my point. Just because some did, apparently, something wrong, don't tar the whole Corps or US forces with the same brush. How many good deeds performed there have gone unreported? I'd feel safe to lay a large sum on the results of that bet. Same holds true for the vast, vast majority of HM forces engaged. A few clods, a whole bunch of good folks trying to do their best. And survive.
Oh, and to the topic starter of this thread; the BS powerpoint ethics training is obviously just a CYA effort. We've all seen similiar scenarios where one idiot pooped his pants and we all have to wear diapers. Same concept here.