Whose Stupid Idea Was this??
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Whose Stupid Idea Was this??
Just been reading the latest RN Cockpit, and saw the warning about OX 26/OM 15. So who had the bright idea of putting OM 15 in square can? An accident waiting to happen if ever there was one.
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Can be really nasty those square cans. Perhaps you could read what it is, if you look close enough it might even be printed on the side of the square can as to what the contents are. Accident averted. Wow that was easy.
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Plus, there are only a finite number of shapes that you can get cans made in. Having a fitting on the top that only suits the appropriate gun/pump is a different matter...
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Ratty, come on! There have been very few incidents of this nature while the cans were different shapes, and on one DASC report just out there are 3!! (Or so.. not got the report in front of me!) It must have cost the MOD more on cancelled sorties/recalled aircraft already than it would to continue to purchase different cans for the job! It is very similar to the change in fire extinguisher design in the last few years! Why change something that works and that people understand?? It is easy to not read/misread labels when tired or at night or working in bad weather in field conditions! WHY TAKE THE CHANCE???
In my view its just dangerous.
Rant over..
In my view its just dangerous.Rant over..
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Contract has been changed, hence different shape can. Techies shouldnt be relying on shape anyway to ident type! next you will be telling me that batches are not checked either! and cans have to meet strict united nations (dangerous goods) regulations hence cant have different size caps per oil type.
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Can be really nasty those square cans. Perhaps you could read what it is, if you look close enough it might even be printed on the side of the square can as to what the contents are. Accident averted. Wow that was easy.
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There have been a lot more than 3 incidents on the one aircraft type I know about. However, give it 6 months and people will have learnt to RTFL. To purge current stocks now would take even longer. Properties of the two are pretty close, so no long term effects/ damage are likely. Disruption to fly prog not good though I admit! 
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does not rtfl apply?
It can't be that hard. How do they manage down tescos with all the same stuff in the same packets, with only the LARGE WORDS on the outside to differentiate.
(but then i'm only an air trafficer, and obviously not up on the ins & outs of the complexities of label reading).
It can't be that hard. How do they manage down tescos with all the same stuff in the same packets, with only the LARGE WORDS on the outside to differentiate.
(but then i'm only an air trafficer, and obviously not up on the ins & outs of the complexities of label reading).
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IMHO, I think OM15 cans should have remained in round tins but the contract has been let now and it appears we're stuck with engine oil shaped tins.
When enough engines have been contaminated and the whole situation settles down, it'll be interesting to see how many hyd systems are then contaminated with OX27.
Oh, and all this before the introduction of the OM15 replacement, OX19.
Still I presume there will have been plenty of well earned advancements on the back of the highly effective change management programmes implemented to deal with the change in OM15 can shape!!
When enough engines have been contaminated and the whole situation settles down, it'll be interesting to see how many hyd systems are then contaminated with OX27.
Oh, and all this before the introduction of the OM15 replacement, OX19.
Still I presume there will have been plenty of well earned advancements on the back of the highly effective change management programmes implemented to deal with the change in OM15 can shape!!
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Strange how us knuckle-dragging F&L stackers can tell the difference between OX26 and OM15 when we issue it to sections but the highly-trained folk with fat wallets we give it to can't.
The station I'm at even handed out posters (produced through DFC West Moors I believe) to help those poor souls work it out. Bless.
Of course its never the fault of the line swine just those damned stackers again, expecting techies to interrupt their game of ping pong to actually RTFL.
Never assume, check.
The station I'm at even handed out posters (produced through DFC West Moors I believe) to help those poor souls work it out. Bless.
Of course its never the fault of the line swine just those damned stackers again, expecting techies to interrupt their game of ping pong to actually RTFL.
Never assume, check.
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Ok let me see now.....................
I know why dont you write OX26 on one can and OM15 on the other to save any confusion
. I guess most techies can read numbers and letters.
You could even paint one tin black with white letters and numbers and the other tin white with black letters and numbers. Or even green with white numbers and letters and the other Pink with deep ocean blue numbers and letters............. You see the possibilities are endless.
I know why dont you write OX26 on one can and OM15 on the other to save any confusion. I guess most techies can read numbers and letters. You could even paint one tin black with white letters and numbers and the other tin white with black letters and numbers. Or even green with white numbers and letters and the other Pink with deep ocean blue numbers and letters............. You see the possibilities are endless.
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Oil Cans
Shame some oils were decanted from one shape to the other in one case - just so the pump fitted .... ooops
Then one station posts warning notices all around the place ... and 3 more ac are contaminated within days.
At one time six ac from mixed types were effected in one week.
Then one station posts warning notices all around the place ... and 3 more ac are contaminated within days.
At one time six ac from mixed types were effected in one week.
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Bloody hell guys. Most of you are just jumping on the gingers because of these incidents but it's a simple matter of ergonomics. Remember back to your elementary trainers and note that the throttle, mixture and rpm levers were not only different colours and positions but different shapes and on many aircraft different textures as well (although wearing leather gloves kills that one). Several layers of defence built in against inadvertant incorrect selections. On the matter of oil containers, we now have a situation where the levels of defence against incorrect selections have been reduced by one. Most of you argue to the effect that the gingers should just read the bloody label but I genuinely think that differentiating between the different oils on as many levels as possible is the right way to go. You may argue that only one preventative measure should be necessary to prevent an incident, and you may be right, but why not have two or three.
I think many of you chaps are being unduly harsh on the gingers (and that's coming from an aircrew mate). Before you shoot your mouth of on this issue have a think about how many fixed-wing guys have cut off the mixture on pfls, and how many RW guys pulled the collective instead of the parking brake, or closed the thottle instead of putting it to idle or moved the throttle instead of the nozzles and so on.
The change to oil container designs was unnecessary and degrades safety.
I think many of you chaps are being unduly harsh on the gingers (and that's coming from an aircrew mate). Before you shoot your mouth of on this issue have a think about how many fixed-wing guys have cut off the mixture on pfls, and how many RW guys pulled the collective instead of the parking brake, or closed the thottle instead of putting it to idle or moved the throttle instead of the nozzles and so on.
The change to oil container designs was unnecessary and degrades safety.
Last edited by Fg Off Max Stout; 31st May 2006 at 22:54.
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ratty1, RNGrommits
you are sooo sooo wrong. 3.30am loads of pressure on the techies, to get the aircraft up, in the middle of their(the techies) circadian dips etc etc etc. This incident will occur over and over again untill they put the failsafe back in.
Grommits you may be an Air Trafficker but if reading the label is so easy, then why do Air Traffickers f**k up just as often as pilots and techies, for example putting aircraft on converging headings at the same height etc. After all your just looking at a screen where every aircraft is given a label arn't you?? Why cant you just read it? Why the problems Grommits, you are only reading labels after all. Maybe its just down to human error chum, something we are all suseptable to arn't we.
you say
'(but then i'm only an air trafficer, and obviously not up on the ins & outs of the complexities of label reading).'
I do hope that improves. You read labels on console, you read labels on radar, you read chinagraph labels in the tower.
you are sooo sooo wrong. 3.30am loads of pressure on the techies, to get the aircraft up, in the middle of their(the techies) circadian dips etc etc etc. This incident will occur over and over again untill they put the failsafe back in.
Grommits you may be an Air Trafficker but if reading the label is so easy, then why do Air Traffickers f**k up just as often as pilots and techies, for example putting aircraft on converging headings at the same height etc. After all your just looking at a screen where every aircraft is given a label arn't you?? Why cant you just read it? Why the problems Grommits, you are only reading labels after all. Maybe its just down to human error chum, something we are all suseptable to arn't we.
you say
'(but then i'm only an air trafficer, and obviously not up on the ins & outs of the complexities of label reading).'
I do hope that improves. You read labels on console, you read labels on radar, you read chinagraph labels in the tower.
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I've put the wrong oil in an engine before. It was on board the transport aircraft I was downroute with, and since engines isn't my main trade - just did the week on topping up oil, emtying the crappers etc - I assumed the oil on board was the oil to use. It was in an identical shaped tin, painted green, with white writing on - just like the can I should have used (only a different OX number)
No serious harm done, just an engine which had to be drained and refilled several days later when someone spotted the wrong oil on board and I got quizzed / bollocked about it.
Of course, I'm older and wiser now, and have learned not to trust anything I'm not familiar with. Never assume...
No serious harm done, just an engine which had to be drained and refilled several days later when someone spotted the wrong oil on board and I got quizzed / bollocked about it.
Of course, I'm older and wiser now, and have learned not to trust anything I'm not familiar with. Never assume...
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Have been trying to get this one sorted for a while now but have found that those older, wiser and with more stripes have said that the lads will have to RTFL or face the disciplinary consequences Is this the open flight safety culture we want to promote or will lads now just not own up after making an honest mistake?
The shape of tin was never mandated on the previous contract or on the current one, it was just that the old manufacturer used round tins whilst the new one uses the standard square ones. Have also had a couple of a/c types pointed out to me by senior types that have always had all fluids in square tins and have not had a problem with cross-contamination.
The principle issue is that hyds fluid has a lower flash point and lubricity than engine oil: bearings get hot due to reduced lubrication - fluid has a lower flashpoint........etc.
Personally I feel that we need to make engineering as fool proof as possible, everyone makes mistakes, especially on the long night shifts in far away places. However meeting with quite high level resistance at the moment. Will see what happens next but til then expect to see more IRs from across the different fleets.
Is this the open flight safety culture we want to promote or will lads now just not own up after making an honest mistake?The shape of tin was never mandated on the previous contract or on the current one, it was just that the old manufacturer used round tins whilst the new one uses the standard square ones. Have also had a couple of a/c types pointed out to me by senior types that have always had all fluids in square tins and have not had a problem with cross-contamination.
The principle issue is that hyds fluid has a lower flash point and lubricity than engine oil: bearings get hot due to reduced lubrication - fluid has a lower flashpoint........etc.
Personally I feel that we need to make engineering as fool proof as possible, everyone makes mistakes, especially on the long night shifts in far away places. However meeting with quite high level resistance at the moment. Will see what happens next but til then expect to see more IRs from across the different fleets.
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Of course we can read labels 
, but it is yet another "foolproof" failsafe to help prevent cross contamination. It is the same reason aircraft emergency systems are painted yellow and black, ie easy to identify quickly. Although its easy to say RTFL, it helps prevent a mishap in ****ty dark conditions, especially when you are doing a big job that involves engine oil and hydrulic oils being filled up, just like a herc K where the prop takes OM15 and the engine takes OX27 
. These things have been developed over time for a reason, ususally because an accident has happened before
, but it is yet another "foolproof" failsafe to help prevent cross contamination. It is the same reason aircraft emergency systems are painted yellow and black, ie easy to identify quickly. Although its easy to say RTFL, it helps prevent a mishap in ****ty dark conditions, especially when you are doing a big job that involves engine oil and hydrulic oils being filled up, just like a herc K where the prop takes OM15 and the engine takes OX27 . These things have been developed over time for a reason, ususally because an accident has happened before
The holier-than-thou comments at the start of this thread were echoed in whatever flight safety publication I was reading about this issue, when RTFL was the officially mandated solution (along with: it's too difficult to change the contract now OR IN THE FUTURE).
There will always be ignorance between the trades but I had hoped that the better integration of the engineers and the suppliers over the past decade would have gone some way to mitigate and avoid these problems. Clearly, we still have a long way to go!
(Or in other words, if you haven't worked in the middle of nowhere, at oh-dark-thirty, outside, in the dark, with crappy lighting, low on manpower, under pressure to meet an op wave, after 12 hours plus on duty, then try to imagine how easy it is to make a mistake reading a label - if you can't, then you sound like the ideal man to go into POL procurement!)
There will always be ignorance between the trades but I had hoped that the better integration of the engineers and the suppliers over the past decade would have gone some way to mitigate and avoid these problems. Clearly, we still have a long way to go!
(Or in other words, if you haven't worked in the middle of nowhere, at oh-dark-thirty, outside, in the dark, with crappy lighting, low on manpower, under pressure to meet an op wave, after 12 hours plus on duty, then try to imagine how easy it is to make a mistake reading a label - if you can't, then you sound like the ideal man to go into POL procurement!)
The reason we have gone over to using square tins is because there are no round tins left, all the 'chavs' have used them up sticking them on the back of their peugot 206's exhaust pipes.
