Is the Raf transport fleet over stretched ?
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ZH - To get it right the Stretched MK3 consists of a 100" plug aft of the flight deck and a 80" plug aft of the Para Doors.
Lukey - I too saw the original press report which actually said some units in Iraq may have to wait an extra month for roulement due to lack of correctly equipped RAF AT to extract them.... IRCM etc
Riley - When I was a young man in the mob we had an AT Fleet in excess of 280+ frames in strength - Beverley, Hastings, Hercules, Comets. Argosy's. Andovers, Britannias, VC10s, Twin Pioneers and even 3 Dakotas still flying in Aden! Amazingly it was the predecessors of this Labour (Let's start a war mob) who chopped a lot of types in cost cutting exercises - Brittania, Belfast, Argosy etc. I'm sure if we had the will (the cash is there) we could buy some surplus SD330, Skyvan etc from someone?
Lukey - I too saw the original press report which actually said some units in Iraq may have to wait an extra month for roulement due to lack of correctly equipped RAF AT to extract them.... IRCM etc
Riley - When I was a young man in the mob we had an AT Fleet in excess of 280+ frames in strength - Beverley, Hastings, Hercules, Comets. Argosy's. Andovers, Britannias, VC10s, Twin Pioneers and even 3 Dakotas still flying in Aden! Amazingly it was the predecessors of this Labour (Let's start a war mob) who chopped a lot of types in cost cutting exercises - Brittania, Belfast, Argosy etc. I'm sure if we had the will (the cash is there) we could buy some surplus SD330, Skyvan etc from someone?
Last edited by adrian mole; 1st Jun 2006 at 07:28.
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Originally Posted by lukeylad
hey guys i think im just gonna let this one die now could a mod please lock this thread as i think its done more harm that good.
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Originally Posted by fightingchickenplumb
just curious why you want to let this thread die mate? not talking about the overstretch in the raf wont make it go away buddy.
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Don't worry about it Lukey, Some people on here are always wary of Journalists who do have a tendancy to twist things. Others just like to bait and 'banter' for nothing more than self amusement.
All part of the military mindset!
All part of the military mindset!
!
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I asked this one before but nobody replied - could the AT fleet not stage out of LCA or somewhere else to do the extraction from BSR and contract civvy aircraft to lift from LCA-UK? That would solve the problem of operating civair into BSR but reduce sector lengths for the RAF a/c.
Originally Posted by MarkD
- could the AT fleet not stage out of LCA
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
So let me get this right. We spend a fortune on various types of ship to give us an expeditionary capability. Half the arguments on here are about how the RN is much better for such things because, while it moves a little slower, it can carry a lot more. But when theres a problem moving the army - its all the RAFs fault...
Tell them to hire a bl**dy boat, its how we moved the army around the empire until the 60s - and stick it on the army's bill.
Tell them to hire a bl**dy boat, its how we moved the army around the empire until the 60s - and stick it on the army's bill.
Last edited by ORAC; 1st Jun 2006 at 17:07.
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could the AT fleet not stage out of LCA or somewhere else to do the extraction from BSR and contract civvy aircraft to lift from LCA-UK? That would solve the problem of operating civair into BSR but reduce sector lengths for the RAF a/c.
The Army are, quite rightly, disgusted with the 'service' we provide.
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Or use chartered civil freighters (DC8-62F) to do the scheduled freight runs to BSR (which was done very sucessfully in the not too distant past), thereby freeing up AT aircraft for pax flights.
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Or just buy some more bloody AT aircraft so the RAF can do the job we're here for!
We shouldn't have to come up with all kinds of solutions to the problem to get round the fact we can't do our tasks properly.
"Hire civvy jets"
"Fly shorter sectors"
"Use a boat"
WRONG!! Expand our transport fleet and we'll do the job!
We shouldn't have to come up with all kinds of solutions to the problem to get round the fact we can't do our tasks properly.
"Hire civvy jets"
"Fly shorter sectors"
"Use a boat"
WRONG!! Expand our transport fleet and we'll do the job!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
WRONG!! Expand our transport fleet and we'll do the job!
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Best meaning cheapest?
Best to me means providing the Force with the kit to do their job. Including considerations as to fit for purpose and able to defend themselves / avoid trouble. Which may not be the cheapest...
Much like providing the civil servants with fully adjustable chairs at £1000 each - bound to have upped their output eh?
Best to me means providing the Force with the kit to do their job. Including considerations as to fit for purpose and able to defend themselves / avoid trouble. Which may not be the cheapest...
Much like providing the civil servants with fully adjustable chairs at £1000 each - bound to have upped their output eh?
Putting to one side the issue of whether this question should be answered in open forum, we first need a definition of what's meant by "overstretch" of the RAF transport fleet.
My definition of normal day to day ops would be that they are pitched at a level where the op tempo can be sustained indefinitely - say at n sorties*/day per airframe.
The next level up might be a "Surge" flying rate where 1.5n sorties/day could be flown for a given period of time (say 30 days)
Finally, there could be a wartime flying rate of 2n sorties/day sustainable for 7 days.
(all figures made up)
I would have expected that the relevant Flying Order Books/GASOs would contain definitions of flying rates. Flying at a surge rate may be a 'stretch' - but it shouldn't be overstretch (unless you're doing it wrong). The 'sustain' element of the op tempo should take into account all the airframe, human & engineering factors. For example, the aircrew should be rested prior to the next sortie. Crews on separate floors in hotels. The flypro should take account of sleep patterns. On one memorable det, I had 3 weeks of 2 days, 2 nights and a day off. Either all days or all nights but not that.
If 'stretch' is to be truly sustainable and not overstretch then Detcos, Shift bosses & crew captains need to be honest and flag up when the dotted line is in danger of getting crossed. If they don't, then perhaps they should consider alternative employment.
sv
*Sorties or hours.
My definition of normal day to day ops would be that they are pitched at a level where the op tempo can be sustained indefinitely - say at n sorties*/day per airframe.
The next level up might be a "Surge" flying rate where 1.5n sorties/day could be flown for a given period of time (say 30 days)
Finally, there could be a wartime flying rate of 2n sorties/day sustainable for 7 days.
(all figures made up)
I would have expected that the relevant Flying Order Books/GASOs would contain definitions of flying rates. Flying at a surge rate may be a 'stretch' - but it shouldn't be overstretch (unless you're doing it wrong). The 'sustain' element of the op tempo should take into account all the airframe, human & engineering factors. For example, the aircrew should be rested prior to the next sortie. Crews on separate floors in hotels. The flypro should take account of sleep patterns. On one memorable det, I had 3 weeks of 2 days, 2 nights and a day off. Either all days or all nights but not that.
If 'stretch' is to be truly sustainable and not overstretch then Detcos, Shift bosses & crew captains need to be honest and flag up when the dotted line is in danger of getting crossed. If they don't, then perhaps they should consider alternative employment.
sv
*Sorties or hours.
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Originally Posted by ORAC
No, for requirements you state the problem in a solution free form - and see who comes up with the best answer....
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As some Tommy said
'When in a shell-scrape and under fire, remember that the only thing between you and Valhalla is the weapon you hold in your hands .....but also remember that it was produced by the lowest bidder!'
Or something like that - apologies to Tommy
'When in a shell-scrape and under fire, remember that the only thing between you and Valhalla is the weapon you hold in your hands .....but also remember that it was produced by the lowest bidder!'
Or something like that - apologies to Tommy
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We are stretched, but clearly not overstretched - otherwise we wouldn't have AT assets doing flypasts for AOCs, Queen's Birthdays, RIAT etc, not to mention the occasional brass band to ambassador's parties.
We can still do most things with occasional flex to do less-important tasks but sometimes its a case of choose between op tasks when several ageing aircraft break at once. New kit would vastly improve reliability and efficiency, but I personally hope that wouldn't also bring with it more 'brass band-level' tasks. Unfortunately, I can't help but think it might.
We can still do most things with occasional flex to do less-important tasks but sometimes its a case of choose between op tasks when several ageing aircraft break at once. New kit would vastly improve reliability and efficiency, but I personally hope that wouldn't also bring with it more 'brass band-level' tasks. Unfortunately, I can't help but think it might.