Typhoons an Raptors

[RonO]

Not impressed by either article. Both parties too busy grinding axes.

As prereq to an ITAR waiver, the good senator requested the UK made rules & regs to prevent US technologies leaking to 3rd parties. Tony declined that opportunity so no waiver. In other words "if the UK won't implement safeguards, you're stuck with mine". A position that's got solid congress support.

Either way it's irrelevant to UK's JSF program. A sizable UK order is virtually guaranteed now that agreement's been reached on technology sharing.

[Jackonicko]

I suspect that, like Norway, the UK will commit to the next phase and book slots, paying penalties if it subsequently cancels.

It will do so without any guarantee as to exactly what the aircraft's capabilities and characteristics are, and with no firm guarantee as to what it will pay for the privilege. It will do so as part of a high risk, high cost programme that is almost certain to run into difficulties as a direct result of having to make production investment before enough of the development programme has been completed.

We should not sign up to JSF, if samity prevails, but I suspect that we will.

Without operational sovereignty, however, I'd hesitate in predicting that the F-35 will ever actually enter UK service.

[sense1]

Originally Posted by Jackonicko

I suspect that, like Norway, the UK will commit to the next phase and book slots, paying penalties if it subsequently cancels.
It will do so without any guarantee as to exactly what the aircraft's capabilities and characteristics are, and with no firm guarantee as to what it will pay for the privilege. It will do so as part of a high risk, high cost programme that is almost certain to run into difficulties as a direct result of having to make production investment before enough of the development programme has been completed.
We should not sign up to JSF, if samity prevails, but I suspect that we will.
Without operational sovereignty, however, I'd hesitate in predicting that the F-35 will ever actually enter UK service.

Jacko, I agree with alot of what you said in your last post. My motivation on this topic is only that the RAF/RN get the best available platform to conduct ops of the future - within a budget that HM government is able (willing) to afford.

At the end of the day, I am of the opinion that the JSF is probably the way ahead for us. I know that there are many potential problems (more delays, further cost increases) with this bird but IMHO there isn't anything more appropriate available. Our relatively large workshare in this programme should help to ease the pain of unit cost increases.

The Typhoon is/will be a great Air - Air platform and one day in the future it will be good at Air - Ground. I do not, however, think that it will be as good at A-G as the JSF will be. This is mainly due to the stealth properties JSF will have and, if the statement made by Blair and Bush is true , then we will have a true stealth capability in the Brit armed forces for the 1st time - bring it on!

Looking at the alternatives:


Rafale - a fairly decent jet but won't offer HM Armed Forces anything they don't already have in the Typhoon airframe except carrier compatibility.... does this make it worth buying?! I personally don't think so.

F-22 - again its another Air - Air optimised airframe, not giving us a decent Air - Ground capability. An amazing jet - don't get me wrong! But not what we need.

More Typhoons (Tranche III & beyond) - like I have said, it will be good at Air - Ground in the years to come, but its still optimised for the fighter role. No internal bomb bays or real stealth characteristics. We need JSF to balance the Typhoon fleet - this will give us 2 airframes, one that is great at Air - Air and good at Air - Ground and a platform that is great at Air - Ground and good at Air - Air.

Existing 4th generation jets (F-15,F-18 etc) - not a chance! We will get the latest technology and something that will be built (at least partly) by British workers.

All of this just my humble opinion - would like to hear others!
Sense

[steamchicken]

And where is our unique contribution? How much value do we put on VAAC?

[RonO]

The keys for the UK in choosing JSF are:

Flies from boats
Generates huge amounts of $$$ for UK economy
Offers unique, highly desirable capabilities like penetration of high threat defenses
Saves money over buying Typhoons

Once ordered, I expect next shoe to drop will be reduction or elimination of UK Typhoon Tranche 3 as hinted by MinDef.

Jacko, stop being such a sore looser. Both UK sovreign thingie & UK spec are guaranteed. In fact, UK gets identical spec aircraft to US.

[Jackonicko]

JSF advantages:
Day 1 Stealth
Flies from a boat

JSF drawbacks (even if we negotiate the tech transfer we require):
Already likely to be more expensive in pure cash terms than Typhoon, and without the same industrial/employment/balance of payments benefits
By comparison with extra Typhoons (or even navalised Typhoons) JSF will require a new and separate maintenance and support infrastructure. In a 12 squadron FJ force will we need two or even three types?
Unlikely to be integrated with many of our core future weapons
Unlikely to meet planned its planned ISD, and Harrier unlikely to be able to extend to fill the resulting gap
Neither a true multi-role nor a true swing role aircraft
Stealth may be yesterday's technology - did the F-117 loss and F-117 hull loss in the Balkans signal this?
Still an unproven and very high risk programme, with 99% of the flight test programme still to do

It won't be "the best available platform to conduct ops of the future" if we don't have operational sovereignty. It won't be operationally useful if we can't support and sustain ops without LM and the USA's say so, and if we can't integrate weapons and kits via UORs, or if we don't have the necessary clearances to repair birdstrike or combat damage to the clever leading edges, and the kit to test the RCS of repaired areas.

Even if we have a full-up F-35 and everything we need to operate it without restriction, its one unique capability (day one) can probably be better served up via TLAM and stand off weapons.

And there's a real doubt in my mind that it will be affordable. Only an incurable optimist (or the truly gullible) would still swallow Lockmart's stated prices.

[ORAC]

JDW: JSF engine design changes cause knock-on effect

Design changes that helped to reduce a weight growth problem two years ago are now resulting in problems for the propulsion system of the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

The Pratt & Whitney F135 engine for the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing variant is running at about five per cent, or 190°F (87.7°C), higher than the system's limit in tests, according to programme officials. Around half of the temperature increase, or 100°F, is being attributed as an inadvertent consequence of the programme's 2004 decision to compensate for the aircraft's overall weight growth by raising engine thrust levels.

The new turbine vane design is set to be introduced sometime in mid-2006, and that fix alone should solve more than half of the temperature problem, said Rob Burnes, chief of the JSF joint programme office's propulsion directorate.

[RonO]

Developing Seaphoon & buying more TLAM's is the cheapest option and will overwhelm UK industry with export orders???

UK industry won't miss $25+ billion of JSF revenue???

R-R won't regret not supplying motors to the last big manned fighter program???

The UK has stopped all work on stealth because it's a dead end technology????

Jacko is not in total denial???

To be serious, not many folks think the UK would be looking at JSF if it wasn't for the carrier requirement. Getting such a capable aircraft, saving so much money and generating so much extra UK business is just icing on that cake. Most other countries are rather envious but I guess it's the brit way to downplay the success of your industry. No wonder they're all looking to move stateside.

[Jackonicko]

RR's place on JSF cannot sensibly be lost, regardless of any UK order for the jet.

At pretty high levels, senior BAE personnel in the UK and stateside aver that the company's rear fuselage work (for SDD and production) flows from our Tier One status, and is entirely unrelated to UK uptake. There's a degree of smugness about this, because it makes our $2 Bn SDD investment extraordinarily good value. They claim that they can only be replaced if someone else can offer better 'best value', and with Samlesbury tooled up that's a tad unlikely. They may be mistaken, though it strikes me that one undeniable core competency demonstrated by "the Baron" is his unerring ability to draw up contracts in his own best interests!

Moreover, while Tom Burbage has made noises about how difficult it would be to justify a nation participating industrially that was not taking aircraft, he's never been willing to clearly contradict this BAE claim, and I and others have asked him to do so on numerous occasions, and will doubtless do so again, many times, during the run up to Farnborough and at SBAC.

[ORAC]

Since the LM/DoD standard reply to Norway, Italy or anyone else complaining about workshare is that, under the contract arrangements, work is not tied to the number of aircraft ordered and that the participation fee gives one the right to bid, but that contracts will solely be awarded on the basis of best price. Since the UK has paid the fee, and is the only Tier 1 partner too boot, they would be between a rock and a hard place if they tried to do otherwise.....

[RonO]

ORAC, Jacko is suggesting that the UK could retain it's JSF Tier 1 status and $25 billion revenue stream by quitting the program and not buying any aircraft. In other words, stopping payments to the program at the end of this year. The US wouldn't be at all mad at being screwed over.

He also thinks the 2nd engine R-R participation would survive the UK leaving.

And Bae can't be replaced as supplier.

Barking on all three counts.

Burbage won't answer the question because it's not going to happen. The UK will stay in the program and will place orders. Why would he be so stoopid as to speculate otherwise? Jeesh.

[ORAC]

Saudi order for jets will keep RAF waiting

BRITAIN'S fighter pilots will be kept waiting even longer for the nation's long-delayed new jet because dozens will be sent to Saudi Arabia instead.....

The MoD has committed itself to two further tranches, of 89 and 88 aircraft respectively. But the pressure to sell the plane abroad has forced the department to agree a reduction of at least 24 in the number BAE pledged to include in the second delivery, in order to satisfy the Saudis.

The RAF will at least have to wait longer to get its full complement. But defence sources last night suggested the Saudi order could be used to "get the MoD off the hook", and allow the government to cancel the third tranche without incurring huge cancellation fees.........

[ORAC]

A link from Defence Industry Daily. I don´t suppose one of our Francophone ppruners could translate and provide a precis of what they think the gaps/shortcomings are?

DID:.....the May 2006 issue of French publication Defense et Securite Internationale carried an article entitled "Rafale et Typhoon: Les Europeens auraient-ils tort d'avoir... raison" [PDF format]. It looks at the Rafale and Eurofighter in particular, and notes some of the issues that have stalled their export success. The article argues that the planes were well adapted to European needs, but had critical gaps when placed on the global export market. While these shortcomings and others are all being addressed in time, many of these improvements are arriving just as the aircraft's market window is narrowing. Were the Europeans really wrong to be right? The article is completely in French, but we're putting the link up for DID's international and multi-lingual readers because it was interesting.

[Jackonicko]

Way too long for me to justify translating, but Alta Vista say:

'Ow you say?

Altavista say:

"Rafale and Typhoon
Would Europeans be wrong to be right...?
Jean-Louis Prome_

Rafale and Typhoon, the two fighters provided by European industry, constitute, with encroire the experts, the best possible compromises as regards performances, of technologies and capacities of evolution. Contrary to their American candidates, F-22 and F-35, the choice of the furtivity, more adapted at the time of the cold war than to the situation present or conceivable in the medium term, did not weigh more than necessary on the design of the two European planes. Which would be adapted thus perfectly to the present needs and foreseeable. Néan less, the prospects for the sales export of the Rafale and Typhoons' prove minimalists today.

Europe, as regards offer, fighters today a paradoxical landscape. Its domestic market currently constitutes only in the capable world to offer, as of the launching of a program, effects of series comparable with those from which the products profit from on the other side of the Atlantic. Thus, they are not less than 992 Tornado which left the Italian chains, German and British. And the partners of Typhoon envisaged to acquire some, with them four, not less than 620 (including 392 already ordered). Quantities more than honourable. Even in comparison with the American market: USAF indeed pains to find the budget necessary à la order of 183 F-22 Raptor! And yet, far deconsolider this domestic market, Europe continues àse to turn towards the American products. It is thus quedes country not taking part in the "great" programs of European fighters acquired still recently of F-16 while even the nations headlights, such Great Britain and Italy, integrated the F-35 program, agreeing kind to rock with the profit of the American industry of the budgets of R&D which could probably better have been useful, if they had been employed on other programs, intérêts européens. But there is not the single paradox of this Europe which offers the luxury to develop in its centre several competitor programs of which systems of weapons among most advanced in the world.

TYPHOON: The MEILLEUREN AERIAL COMBAT

Typhoon Side, the majority of the specialists recognizes with the European system of undeniable weapons its air-to-air capacities. Thus, for example, the fusion of the sensors (radar, electronic support measures, Infrared Search and Track, IFF, MIDS) allows it the classification and the precise localization of the targets. The range of acquisition and to detir air-to-air system of weapons, man?uvrability of the cell, the recovery of the plane by the calculator in Takeoff of a Rafale B equipped with Apache missiles and tanks auxiliary. Within the Air Force, the Rafale will firstly replace the Jaguar, left service

cases of confusion of the pilot or too low speed, constitute with so many assets quien do undoubtedly today one of the best apparatuses of aerial combat of the world. Such an amount of in combat with moyenne/grande distance (with missile AMRAAM AIM-120C of 70-80 km range and three years Meteor of 120 km) that with short range with the ASRAAM and soon the Iris-T. Was Parcontre, the will to bring to the system of weapons of real air-to-ground capacities expressed tardily - too? - in unrolled program. To speak clearly, Typhoon is a system of air-to-air weapons with which one would like to associate air-to-ground capacities afterwards. It was not developed entant that true system of weapons general-purpose ready to evolve/move at high speed at very low altitude like was it, on its side, the Rafale. The centering of mass very behind of Typhoon, conceived to bring to him a very great man?uvrability in air-to-air combat, a very unstable apparatus in volen high subsonic with risks - not yet completely evaluated - at the time of the droppings of heavy air-to-ground armaments. The system of weapons does not have either the very powerful air-to-ground modes from which the radar and the OSF (Optronique Secteur Frontal) profit from the Rafale.

For the hour, only the integration of the bombs with laser guidance Paveway 2 of 250 kg (guidance via a Litening nacelle of Israeli origin) obtained a concrete financing; the RAF wishing to lay out decette capacity on its Typhoon as of the next year. British and Italians plan, moreover, to integrate the cruise missile Storm Shadow on their Typhoon; Spain and Germany should choose, for their part, the Taurus missile. The RAF wish erait also, in the long term more remote, to mount the air-to-ground missile Brimstone (developed starting from the body of the missile Hellfire, this missile, thanks to its British millimetre-length homing head, can seek, in an autonomous way or not, the targets of the tank type), firstly intended for Tornado and Harrier, under its Typhoon. In short, to integrate air-to-ground armaments of precision under Typhoon is expensive. And the European partners balk to finance such integrations. In fact, the concern of the delivery of air-to-ground armaments of precision became priority for the European industrialists when they saw the Singaporean authorities, at the end of 2005, to draw aside Typhoon of the competition precisely to sanction this capacitaire absence.

Because, more seriously, the requirements for the European partners as regards air-to-ground are already met via other parks for fighters: Harrier, AMX and Tornado, even later F-35, for the United Kingdom and Italy, Tornado for Germany, EF-18 for Spain. It thus acts primarily, by this desperate search for versatility, to improve the chances of the system of weapons to export.

RAFALE: THE BEST INTO AIR-TO-GROUND
Acting of the Rafale, the apparatus, on the other hand, right from the start, was optimized for the air-to-ground combat. Its radar and its OSF post particularly advanced operating modes allowing the search and the identification for targets terrestrial, even mobile, the detection/localisation and the identification (via the electronic whole of war Spectra) of the ground-to-air means of the zone on flight, three-dimensional visualization and the realization of complex trajectories making it possible really to marry the relief, to draw advantage from all the obstacles to walk on with the shelter of the unfavourable means. As regards air-to-ground armaments, the Rafale F2 current - a first squadron of twenty machines, EC. 1/7 Provence, should be set up with St-Dizier as from this summer - will be with same, from the very start of the next year, to use new propelled guided bombs AASM with hybrid guidance GPS/inertiel. To a first alternative with decametric precision, towards 2008/09, an alternative equipped with a homing head will be added will infra red ensuring a metric final precision. Obviously, the Rafale also carries the cruise missile Scalp-EG and the future nuclear ASMP-A. What makes a system of air-to-ground weapons of it particularly efficient. More than Typhoon. Nevertheless, as well one as the other constitute essentially, in Flight tests of Spanish Eurofighter. Resulting from program EFA (European Fighter Aircraft) launched in the years 1980, the apparatus is nantet impression has a good potential.

that the other constitute essentially, as regards air-to-ground, of the "trucks with bombs" delivering their "intelligent" weapons remotely of safety target deleurs. It is not thus any more question of carrying out del' brought closer air support (CAS). These planes prove expensive and rare bientrop to be kind risky. The CAS constitutes today one of the missions allotted to the helicopters of attack (Apache and Tigre) and, especially, to extremely precise and reactive ground-to-ground artillery become thanks to the existence of guided ammunition and to integration with command and advanced information systems (standard Atlas in France).

A MYOPIA SENDS TREATMENT The true operational problem of the Rafale, in particular to the possible customers with export, it is, today, the insufficiency of its system of weapons as regards aerial combat long range. It be-with-direau-beyond 60 to 70 km. Carrying only air-to-air missiles MICA with average carried, equipped with an effective but suffering radar RBE2 of an unquestionable "myopia" in comparison with the American and Russian candidates, the Rafale, when it functions in an autonomous, short way serious risks to be made detect and cut down by the adversary before to have been able itself to react. The exercises carried out with the Known-30 Indian ones and American F/A-18 showed it. At such a point that, of a communaccord, the protagonists get along, at the time of these exercises, has fine not irremediably not to penalize the pilots French, to limit confrontation to the volumede detection and of shooting of the Rafale. However, Known-27/Su-30 and their missiles Vympel R-77 with long range start to be widely diffused: Algeria is equipped some, but also of the countries such as Ethiopia or Érythrée. In short, the system of Rafale weapons, also penalize by a maximum speed from hardly My 1,8 instead of My 2 for Typhoon or Known-30, runs the risk more and more to be found confronted with "short-sighted" adversaries less that him. An unacceptable risk for possible purchasers. Admittedly, integration, acquired, of the European missile long Meteor range (close of 120km of range with final acceleration for réduireles chances of the target to avoid the interception), by 2012, just as the development of procedures of acquisition of targets and shooting off-set via the liaison16/MIDS, a pilot of Rafale then seeing itself offering surses screens of edge a tactical situation widened to the echoes detected by external sensors (AWACS for example), would owe modifi er significantly the situation. With the advantage of the Rafale. More especially as is considered by the French Air Force the possibility of integrating, for this horizon, an active electronic antenna with the lengthened range. Thus, on paper, about 2012, aumieux, probably a little later, the Rafale should it be able to start to be credible, as regards aerial combat long range, with close to the potentials customers export. But it will be quite late. The Rafale appearing then, near the rare world air forces having the sufficient budgetary means to acquire a system of so expensive weapons, like an "exceeded" apparatus, although expensive, preceding generation, by the new exportable American fighter, namely F-35.

RAFALE TOO FRANCHOUILLARD! Moreover, Typhoon, in the trade negociations with export, profits all the same from serious A all: he is the military little brother of Airbus. A whole symbol. In particular for the possible European customers. It is what partly explains the choice of Vienna of commander18 Typhoon. A system of weapons however surpuissant compared to the real operational needs for Austria. And also that Athens still hesitates, in spite of strong the American espressions, with completely giving up the idea of an ordering of Typhoon. A European passion - relative - of which the Rafale, the obviously, catalogues Franco-French, does not profit. Out of Europe, any time, the European apparatus still pains to find its credibility. Would be this only because of its air-to-ground capacities summons

very limited. Born year less, the advertisement of a forthcoming officialization of a Saoudi order relating to a first batch of 72 Typhoon to deliver very quickly, since 2008, should contribute to give some lustreà the commercial step export of the European consortium. It does not take born year less comes to delude. Most recent of the various studies available to evaluate the future of the market of the fighters estimate between 250 and 300 the number of apparatuses to be delivered annually during twenty next years. And on this number, hardly 20 % would relate to markets soumisà the competition. The balance being distributed between domestic markets American and European. Moreover, on these 20 %, the share accessible to the fighters European, twin-jet aircrafts and thus very expensive, would owe serévéler marginal. The more so as the competition will be large with American F-35 which, for a similar price, will seem technologically more advanced inevitably. In fact, the essence of this share of 20 % accessible should be satisfied by the "pointed" single engines, standard Gripen, and the Russian twin-jet aircrafts (Mig-29, Known-27/Su-30 and descendants), definitely less expensive and which, indeed, are sold like rolls. Without counting the announced arrival of the UCAV, these combat drones, at the price comparable with that of a fighter of entry of range, able to patrol on zone in waiting of detection, by the network of networks, of a terrestrial target to treat by one of the "intelligent" bombs carried in its compartments. In other words, even acting of Typhoon, the prospects for success to export should not make illusion. They are tiny.

TO SECURE A SUFFICIENT CAPTIVE MARKET They will not constitute, true emblablement, as that was the case with Tornado sold with 120 specimens in Riyadh, than a no-claims bonus. Appreciable, certainly, but a simple no-claims bonus. In fact, the economic viability of a program like Typhoon was penséedès the origin to be able to exploit itself the only domestic orders, the European co-operation making it possible to ensure itself of an industrially credible and sufficient initial market captive. The masterly error made with the Rafale consisted in, on the other hand, believing that a system of so expensive weapons would manage all the same to find its place on the market export and that this one would counterbalance the absence of a captive market of sufficient launching. He is well too late, from now on, to regret that France did not know to accept the sacrifices necessary - in particular the abandonment by Snecma of an autonomous capacity of developer of military engines of high performances - to be able intégrerle European program. Or although ellen' did not know to make the choice of a system of weapons optimized for export, i.e. of an apparatus less advanced and thus more accessible single engine by the air forces traditionally customers of the Mirage. Because, with the Rafale, technically adapted but well too expensive, Dassault Aviation irremediably cut dela customers of the Third World which had made the success of its precedents generations fighters. But there, it had to falluparvenir to persuade the Air Force to be satisfied with a less powerful system of weapons and not corresponding to sesattentes operational. Lastly, the delay dedix years recorded in the operational service entrance of the Rafale, compared to the initial calendar of the program, made perdrela window of opportunity whose bénéfi cier the system of French weapons in the temporary absence could hope for more modern American candidates.

PERFECT BUT TOO EXPENSIVE SYSTEMS Admittedly, the Rafale, resulting from an alliance of interest between industry and operational French, constitutes, on an technico-operational level, a powerful system of weapons. Probably, even, lemieux adapted, today, by its versatility and its autonomy of employment, voireses important capacities of evolution (for example the reciblage in flight of the weapons deprécision), with the needs for quantity of air forces of average size. The versatility of the Rafale, its capacity successively to carry out, during the same flight, several missions - aerial combat, recognition, strike fixed terrestrial targets and other mobiles - makes it possible, indeed, to maximize a single park of relatively modest size. It makes more with less. Capacity of the Rafale to be functioned in total autonomy very as far as to be also integrated into a complex network of networks in fact a system of weapons much more adaptable to the diversity of the situations of combat which can meet an average air force than an American apparatus standard F-35 optimized to function like a pawn of a system of systems essentially controlled by the United States. The Rafale, or even Typhoon, preserves thus more than leF-35 the purely national liberty of action of the country user without obérer the capacity being worked within a coalition controlled by the Pentagon. It does not remain about it less than the Rafale, on the commercial level, is connected for the hour with a failure. Remain that with the Rafale and Typhoon, European before are very developed systems of weapons with the point of technology intended to satisfy their operational rather than possible a clientè export. With the risk, quite real, to thus give up the place with the Russian airframe manufacturers and tomorrow Chinese and Indians."

[ORAC]

"furtivity", that´ll be franglais for stealth then.....

[RonO]

"...pawn of a system of systems essentially controlled by the United States"

that would be the UK then?

[NoseGunner]

What annoys me about JSF is that we are getting the worst one. Every Tom Dick and Harry will have better range/endurance and better payload than us. Never mind, at least it'll look good at airshows

Hang on this all sounds a bit familiar............


Personally I think that we will buy it whatever - but come 2020 (when JSF will just be getting sorted) the mature Typhoon will be far better when stealth or operating off carriers is not required.

[ORAC]

Confirmation that Italy have won the European JSF assembly line:

.....Another issue that may have been decided is whether Italy will be the site of a second final assembly plant. Italian government and aerospace interests have lobbied to set up a site to produce aircraft to be purchased by Italy and several other European nations.

In an e-mail statement, a spokesman for aerospace manufacturer Alenia Aeronautica said the Italian government has submitted a formal proposal to the Pentagon.

Lockheed spokesman Smith said the company understands that the U.S. “has given Italy preliminary approval of a final assembly line in Italy, for Italian aircraft.”

[jwcook]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Lockheed spokesman Smith said the company understands that the U.S. “has given Italy preliminary approval of a final assembly line in Italy, for Italian aircraft.”

I thought the Italian line was to produce all European JSF's except the UK's??.

Does that mean the UK will produce the JSF on their own line or that the UK's will be built in the US?.

If its the latter, I wonder why???

Cheers

[secretprojects]

Thats because as Tier 1 partners we get the real deal, not the substandard "monkey model" being assembled in Italy