63 Years ago tonight
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Link to Noel Coward at http://www.noelcoward.net/html/sketches.html and the poem appears to be on a CD called "On the Air: Rare Unknown Broadcasts 1944-1948"
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I was away out of the country on the 16/17 May, but quietly raised a glass in the bar of my hotel to those that took part and drank deep to them – may they all rest in peace and their memory never be forgotten. Courage of their magnitude should be held aloft, as role models for others to follow, don’t you think? Instead their actions seem to ridiculed and criticised by those who abuse the freedom of speech so dearly won by Gibson and his ilk.
An important fact of the mission not generally known is that Hopgood (M – Mother), #2 in the attack on the Möehne and shot down during his run, had suffered significant damage on the way to the target.
The port outer engine was hit and feathered, the front gunner (Gregory) was probably killed, the wireless operator (Minchin) reported being ‘hit in the leg’, (it was actually nearly severed, but that was not known about until nearly an hour later when the rear gunner assisted him to abandon the aircraft – during that time he never uttered any complaint) and the rear gunner (Burcher) was hit in the groin and stomach (ouch!). The loss of the port outer meant that there was no power to the rear turret either. Hopgood himself was badly hit in the HEAD and continued to fly with the Engineer (Brennan) holding a handkerchief to the wound in an effort to staunch the serious blood loss.
Despite these serious setbacks, Hopgood continued to the target with Gibson and Martin without a murmur and attacked unhesitatingly when ordered to do so. On 3 engines, with no suppressive fire from the front turret, he flew an accurate attack into the now thoroughly alerted defences and paid the price. However, even then, Hopgood’s heroism knew no bounds and he remained in control of a now blazing, fully asymmetric, aircraft while he tried to gain height for his crew to abandon the mortally hit Lancaster.
Due to Hopgood’s gallant efforts, 3 of his crew DID get out, although the seriously injured Minchin did not survive the low level abandonment. Bomb Aimer Fraser and Rear Gunner Burcher did get away with it, Burcher with a broken back; he landed, unable to move due to his injuries, immediately downstream of the dam that his colleagues were trying to destroy and in the path of any potential flood.
The point of this diatribe is that, with all the criticism commonly levelled at the Military in general and Bomber Command in particular, wouldn’t it redress the balance, ever so slightly, if a campaign were started to get Hopgood, or, indeed his whole crew (there is precedent), a posthumous VC? Loyalty, bravery, selflessness and real heroism of this order should be recognised forever – and people reminded of it on a regular basis.
Finally, Sir David, and Peter Jackson, if you should read this, please do not prostitute history to the cynical whining of the Nouveau Politically Correct – the dog’s name (and the codeword be-damned!) was what is was.
That’s history, and we are not in George Orwell land - yet.
An important fact of the mission not generally known is that Hopgood (M – Mother), #2 in the attack on the Möehne and shot down during his run, had suffered significant damage on the way to the target.
The port outer engine was hit and feathered, the front gunner (Gregory) was probably killed, the wireless operator (Minchin) reported being ‘hit in the leg’, (it was actually nearly severed, but that was not known about until nearly an hour later when the rear gunner assisted him to abandon the aircraft – during that time he never uttered any complaint) and the rear gunner (Burcher) was hit in the groin and stomach (ouch!). The loss of the port outer meant that there was no power to the rear turret either. Hopgood himself was badly hit in the HEAD and continued to fly with the Engineer (Brennan) holding a handkerchief to the wound in an effort to staunch the serious blood loss.
Despite these serious setbacks, Hopgood continued to the target with Gibson and Martin without a murmur and attacked unhesitatingly when ordered to do so. On 3 engines, with no suppressive fire from the front turret, he flew an accurate attack into the now thoroughly alerted defences and paid the price. However, even then, Hopgood’s heroism knew no bounds and he remained in control of a now blazing, fully asymmetric, aircraft while he tried to gain height for his crew to abandon the mortally hit Lancaster.
Due to Hopgood’s gallant efforts, 3 of his crew DID get out, although the seriously injured Minchin did not survive the low level abandonment. Bomb Aimer Fraser and Rear Gunner Burcher did get away with it, Burcher with a broken back; he landed, unable to move due to his injuries, immediately downstream of the dam that his colleagues were trying to destroy and in the path of any potential flood.
The point of this diatribe is that, with all the criticism commonly levelled at the Military in general and Bomber Command in particular, wouldn’t it redress the balance, ever so slightly, if a campaign were started to get Hopgood, or, indeed his whole crew (there is precedent), a posthumous VC? Loyalty, bravery, selflessness and real heroism of this order should be recognised forever – and people reminded of it on a regular basis.
Finally, Sir David, and Peter Jackson, if you should read this, please do not prostitute history to the cynical whining of the Nouveau Politically Correct – the dog’s name (and the codeword be-damned!) was what is was.
That’s history, and we are not in George Orwell land - yet.
Last edited by Downwind.Maddl-Land; 20th May 2006 at 23:07.
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Downwind.Maddl-Land: I agree with your suggestion about a posthumous VC,
but I have a feeling there is a proviso in the award criteria that would prevent it after such a long time.
but I have a feeling there is a proviso in the award criteria that would prevent it after such a long time.
Downwind, I couldn't agree more. As we get deeper and deeper into a period of being dominated by accountants and lean, with the main aim of the armed forces to carry out cost cutting, this should serve as a timely reminder of exactly what the armed forces are really about: dedication, determination, a willingness to get the job done no matter how great the odds and more importantly in an age that appears to have forgotten, self-sacrifice and looking after your men. That, I expect is why many of us joined up, rather than to implement the next round of cuts. Truly inspirational stuff.
As for the suggestion for a posthumous VC, I don't see why we couldn't at least have a damn good stab at getting something sorted. I realise it happened a long time ago, but the facts certainly seem to be out there and I think the award of the Suez Clasp to the GSM has set a precedent for awarding medals long after the event.
As for the suggestion for a posthumous VC, I don't see why we couldn't at least have a damn good stab at getting something sorted. I realise it happened a long time ago, but the facts certainly seem to be out there and I think the award of the Suez Clasp to the GSM has set a precedent for awarding medals long after the event.
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Henry & Melchett, thanks for the support, but I don't care two *@!s about the rules! Far less noble things have been enacted after the passage of time.
Suggestions welcomed on how one might start the ball rolling........
Suggestions welcomed on how one might start the ball rolling........
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Downwind.Maddl-Land: if you decide to go ahead I wish you success, but I can't help thinking that your chances are less than slim.
I have read of only one case (a Sergeant Major Wright) where the award was changed to a VC after direct intervention of the sovereign.
I am also mindful of the case of Sergeant Manahi.
His recommendation for the VC was endorsed by one Field Marshall and three generals. One of the latter said "It was the most gallant feat of arms I witnessed in the war".
After that you might think it would be matter of just attending to the paper work, but no, reduced to the DCM by Whitehall.
Many years of trying to get the original citation accepted have come to nought.
If your efforts were successful it would open the way for this case and many others to be considered, and I dont think the neddies in Whitehall would allow that to happen.
I have read of only one case (a Sergeant Major Wright) where the award was changed to a VC after direct intervention of the sovereign.
I am also mindful of the case of Sergeant Manahi.
His recommendation for the VC was endorsed by one Field Marshall and three generals. One of the latter said "It was the most gallant feat of arms I witnessed in the war".
After that you might think it would be matter of just attending to the paper work, but no, reduced to the DCM by Whitehall.
Many years of trying to get the original citation accepted have come to nought.
If your efforts were successful it would open the way for this case and many others to be considered, and I dont think the neddies in Whitehall would allow that to happen.
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About a remake of the Dambusters...
[QUOTE= Due out next December.[/QUOTE]
That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.
Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW]
[QUOTE= Due out next December.[/QUOTE]
That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.
Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW]
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Originally Posted by Farmer 1
I can say categorically, if it is made, "It will be shown by Christmas."
Aviate 1138
More worried about the myth of Global Warming than any movie release date.
Climate Change is another matter altogether.
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Originally Posted by BOAC
Link to Noel Coward at http://www.noelcoward.net/html/sketches.html and the poem appears to be on a CD called "On the Air: Rare Unknown Broadcasts 1944-1948"
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Originally Posted by aviate1138
About a remake of the Dambusters...
That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.
Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW]
That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.
Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW]
I'm sure it will be accurate, Peter Jackson is indeed a perfectionist. Good to see that the rights to the movie are no longer in American hands!!
barit1: thank you for that confirmation.
I might just add that growing up in Lincolnshire in the early 50's with both the recent history (and LOTS of Lincolns, Lancasters and early Canberras) around me and also seeing those words on the wall actually started my determination to join as soon as I could - and to a lesser extent to fly the Shack.
Sorry - I should also add watching them during the filming of the original. And it would be good to see a remake if it is accurate, with no PC overwriting of events.
I might just add that growing up in Lincolnshire in the early 50's with both the recent history (and LOTS of Lincolns, Lancasters and early Canberras) around me and also seeing those words on the wall actually started my determination to join as soon as I could - and to a lesser extent to fly the Shack.
Sorry - I should also add watching them during the filming of the original. And it would be good to see a remake if it is accurate, with no PC overwriting of events.
** Pertama **
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With only two airworthy Lancasters (one in Canada), but plenty more non flying examples, are there any plans to restore more to flight for the film?
Come to think of it, any plans to restore Scampton?
I can't see the Germans being too happy about Lancs screaming across the Moehnesee or Edersee.
Come to think of it, any plans to restore Scampton?
I can't see the Germans being too happy about Lancs screaming across the Moehnesee or Edersee.
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Originally Posted by Tombstone
Hey, that's just what they said whilst having a pint in the Dambusters Inn. Peter Jackson is infact set to do it, he is a bit of a history buff and is more than up for it. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak, very exciting.
I'm sure it will be accurate, Peter Jackson is indeed a perfectionist. Good to see that the rights to the movie are no longer in American hands!!
I'm sure it will be accurate, Peter Jackson is indeed a perfectionist. Good to see that the rights to the movie are no longer in American hands!!
A movie with heavy Computer Graphic effects is usually anything from 1.5 - 2+ years in the making. I would like to be contradicted but the Mail on Sunday reporting is not always accurate, as their many retractions have proved.
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The subject matter notwithstanding - I'd go and see anything that risks the wrath of the PC brigade by using the word 'nigger'
Jehovah - you'll go to hell for that one
Sorry folks, that's what his name was
Jehovah - you'll go to hell for that one
Sorry folks, that's what his name was
