Sold out - SAR force to be privatised
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You may not like their politics but:
SNP Defence Spokesperson Angus Robertson MP, whose Moray constituency includes RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss, has today (Tuesday) tabled a Parliamentary motion to gather support for retaining military search and rescue services in light of recent concerns about the privatisation of the service.
Commenting Mr Robertson said:
"There is deep concern about the Labour Government's privatisation agenda in the armed forces. This latest news is unwelcome in Moray and of great concern to many.
"Recent attempts to privatise defence fire services had to be dropped so I'm unconvinced there is any merit in pursuing that agenda in yetanother vital area of provision.
"Many questions remain to beanswered about the privatisation of essential lifesaving services and hillwalkers and mountaineers will be equally concerned about these developments."
Notes:
Mr Robertson's draft motion reads:
PRIVATISATION OF SEARCH AND RESCUE SERVICES
That this House notes with concern plans by Her Majesty's Government to privately outsource search and rescue services; further notes that such a move would see RAF, Royal Navy and Coastguard helicopters replaced by civilian aircraft and crews; believes that replacing a public professional service with private companies would not meet the high standards of the military emergency teams that have saved thousands of lives over the decades; agrees with Tim Walker, director of the Glenmore Lodge national mountain training centre, that military crews would lose "essential training" if no longer involved in civilian rescues; and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to abandon these plans and preserve the well established and highly professional service we currently enjoy.
SNP Defence Spokesperson Angus Robertson MP, whose Moray constituency includes RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss, has today (Tuesday) tabled a Parliamentary motion to gather support for retaining military search and rescue services in light of recent concerns about the privatisation of the service.
Commenting Mr Robertson said:
"There is deep concern about the Labour Government's privatisation agenda in the armed forces. This latest news is unwelcome in Moray and of great concern to many.
"Recent attempts to privatise defence fire services had to be dropped so I'm unconvinced there is any merit in pursuing that agenda in yetanother vital area of provision.
"Many questions remain to beanswered about the privatisation of essential lifesaving services and hillwalkers and mountaineers will be equally concerned about these developments."
Notes:
Mr Robertson's draft motion reads:
PRIVATISATION OF SEARCH AND RESCUE SERVICES
That this House notes with concern plans by Her Majesty's Government to privately outsource search and rescue services; further notes that such a move would see RAF, Royal Navy and Coastguard helicopters replaced by civilian aircraft and crews; believes that replacing a public professional service with private companies would not meet the high standards of the military emergency teams that have saved thousands of lives over the decades; agrees with Tim Walker, director of the Glenmore Lodge national mountain training centre, that military crews would lose "essential training" if no longer involved in civilian rescues; and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to abandon these plans and preserve the well established and highly professional service we currently enjoy.
Out of interest, a recent estimate of the cost of the SARF was circa £50 million per annum; offset against that are treasury level cross-subsidies because DtR don't have to pay to provide the military flights. As far as the RAF is concerned, it would cost almost that much to buy all the good PR and media exposure that the SARF brings so it really doesn't cost more than a couple of premier league footballers a year - and we don't spit, swear or fall over pretending to be hurt
£50 mill. A lot of little choppers for that! (and pilot jobs) Wonder what proportion of UK sar jobs are more than 30-40 minutes transit from base and pick up more than 1 cas?
The RAAF has had civilian SAR for years. Used to be Lloyds I think, but now it's a company called CHC. They use Sikorsky S76's and some older Hueys.
I have nothing but good things to say about them - great bunch of blokes...and a few gals too.
I have nothing but good things to say about them - great bunch of blokes...and a few gals too.
Rebel PPRuNer
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CHC Search and Rescue (UK CG, Aus, Ireland CG, Norway)
Bertie - you just want to bring back the Wessex!
If we used the same creative accounting as Blair and his cronies have used for their use of 32 Sqn aircraft for the running costs of the SAR fleet we could also reduce them considerably.
(Great idea crab: By the same token if we went back to the Wessex we might even end up in profit! )
(Great idea crab: By the same token if we went back to the Wessex we might even end up in profit!
)
Last edited by Shackman; 8th May 2006 at 16:28.
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Gents, having flown both the Mk 3 and 3a I can say that they are great helicopters and the addition of FLIR has greatly improved our capabilities. However; the Mk 3 fleet is over 25 years old and the Mk 3a is almost 10, both being based on a design that is almost 50 years old. We have the slowest Vmax of any UK military helicopter in service and even if we get the Carson blades we will still have the slowest Vmax of any helicopter in UK military service. We are unable to get hoist cables that last more than 50 lifts and in some cases unable to get whole helicopters working. If the government is unable or unwilling to spend the money then let a Canadian company spend theirs and give us the kit and support we need to carry out our job of saving life. We all do a difficult job in very difficult conditions and we need to view this change in a positive light. We get better kit to do our job and in the end the we are better placed to help the casualty. The question of who fles them, thats for the government beancounters to decide.
Last edited by cpmafia; 22nd Apr 2006 at 15:01.
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There is lot of tosh being talked about above e.g RAF SAR costs hundreds of millions etc. The RAF costs are in tens of millions, under the current MCA contract Bristows only provides 4 x S-61s at a cost of £17M (check out the MCA's business plan). RAF SAR provides two aircraft and crews at each fllght location. (Granted the second cab is only serviceable around 50% of the time.) The OCU also provides additional surge capacity. The second aircraft/crew and the OCU aircraft/crews have been used repeatedly over the years for large scale incidents.
Also, the MCA cabs are primarily for maritime use. The aircraft don't have an NVG overland capabilty (and only carry out night coastal work). Over 50% of the RAF/RN SAR effort is overland, so this capability is important. And as an aside, it wouldn't be DTI or even DfT who'd pay for overland SAR as this is the repsonsibility of the Home/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Ireland Offices (enacted through the local police forces).
As for pipe and slippers...that betrays the age of the correspondent rather than the reallity that has existed for over 15 years.
I love a misininformed and prejudiced debate!
Also, the MCA cabs are primarily for maritime use. The aircraft don't have an NVG overland capabilty (and only carry out night coastal work). Over 50% of the RAF/RN SAR effort is overland, so this capability is important. And as an aside, it wouldn't be DTI or even DfT who'd pay for overland SAR as this is the repsonsibility of the Home/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Ireland Offices (enacted through the local police forces).
As for pipe and slippers...that betrays the age of the correspondent rather than the reallity that has existed for over 15 years.
I love a misininformed and prejudiced debate!
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Iconic Brand
Walking along Robin Hoods Bay on Sunday afternoon with the family. Daughter spots the Sea King, obviously hoisting to the North. Job done, the aircraft moves purposefully but gracefully past at low level and away southwards, the loadie waving to the punters below as they go by.
The RAF has an iconic brand here, the bright yellow SAR SK generates huge goodwill from Joe Public when going about its business, because just about everyone in the UK knows that the RAF (and the RN) are on call, 24/7 and will come and get you out of the proverbial.
Alas, the first responders appear to be out on a limb compared even to their JHC brethren and are definitely an afterthought for the RAF FJ (tunnel visioned ?) Head Shed. Would it make any difference if SAR was moved across to JHC ? Would the AAC / RN be happy to take up the mantle...?
The RAF has an iconic brand here, the bright yellow SAR SK generates huge goodwill from Joe Public when going about its business, because just about everyone in the UK knows that the RAF (and the RN) are on call, 24/7 and will come and get you out of the proverbial.
Alas, the first responders appear to be out on a limb compared even to their JHC brethren and are definitely an afterthought for the RAF FJ (tunnel visioned ?) Head Shed. Would it make any difference if SAR was moved across to JHC ? Would the AAC / RN be happy to take up the mantle...?
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from Aberdeen press and journal
RAF AND NAVY TO KEEP ROLE IN RESCUE REVAMP
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DAVID PERRY
09:00 - 08 May 2006
Raf and Royal Navy crews are to continue flying search-and-rescue missions under radical changes expected to increase private-sector involvement in the service due to be announced tomorrow, the Press and Journal understands.
Proposals delayed until after the Scottish Parliament by-election in Moray and English local government elections are expected to retain a Ministry of Defence commitment to the vital service now provided by a mix of civilian and military aircraft and crew.
The Commons announcement will provide a national strategy for the service, which is now provided for historic reasons from RAF Lossiemouth and by civilian helicopter firms under contract to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency at Sumburgh, in Shetland, and Stornoway, in the Western Isles, with a co-ordination HQ at RAF Kinloss.
The announcement will also propose the use of private-sector finance to fund a new generation of helicopters to replace ageing RAF and Navy Sea Kings.
The aim of the Treasury-driven initiative is to remove from the hard-pressed MoD budget the burden of a service that has the main function of rescuing civilians without stopping RAF and Navy personnel gaining essential training from carrying out the work.
Some 97 out of 100 flights involve civilian rather than armed services emergencies.
MoD sources have been denying for weeks that the outcome of a wide-ranging review of the service would be the sale of teams at the 12 search-and-rescue bases around the UK coast and the imposition of charges for those rescued.
MPs across the north made it clear last night that they expected military involvement to continue and said they would fight to prevent any further reduction in RAF or Navy participation.
Orkney and Shetland Liberal Democrat Alistair Carmichael warned that the new arrangements would receive "the closest possible scrutiny" and said other private finance initiatives of this type "have given very poor value to the taxpayer".
"Most important of all, the balance sheet should never be allowed to come before safety considerations," he said.
"This service is vital for many of our coastal and island communities and that must not be lost in the drive for economy."
Moray SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "The MoD needs to ensure that military aircrew continue to be trained to the highest standards in search and rescue as this is essential for the future wellbeing of servicemen and women in combat zones.
"Concerns remain about the privatisation agenda of the Labour Government, which appears to be more to do with cost-cutting and belt-tightening rather than the optimal provision of defence services.
"It is ironic that a Labour administration is privatising lifeline services which were not even considered by the Tories under Margaret Thatcher."
US-owned Bristow and Canadian-based CHC Scotia Helicopters have been reported to be competing for a £40million-a-year contract, possibly running for 25 years, to provide aircraft.
CHC is due to take over the provision of new rescue helicopters at Sumburgh and Stornoway after winning a contract awarded previously to Bristow.
Military sources have also been reported as saying the provision of helicopters, crews, training, maintenance and operation of rescue centres were all "up for grabs".
The move follows the announcement last month that 60 north firefighters had been put on alert to combat large-scale disasters at sea.
They are one of a dozen teams around the UK that will use search-and-rescue helicopters to get to the scene of emergencies.
A team from the new Maritime Incident Response Group was flown to the stricken cruise ship Calypso at the weekend after a fire started in the vessel's engine room in the English Channel.
More Headlines | Back to home page
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DAVID PERRY
09:00 - 08 May 2006
Raf and Royal Navy crews are to continue flying search-and-rescue missions under radical changes expected to increase private-sector involvement in the service due to be announced tomorrow, the Press and Journal understands.
Proposals delayed until after the Scottish Parliament by-election in Moray and English local government elections are expected to retain a Ministry of Defence commitment to the vital service now provided by a mix of civilian and military aircraft and crew.
The Commons announcement will provide a national strategy for the service, which is now provided for historic reasons from RAF Lossiemouth and by civilian helicopter firms under contract to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency at Sumburgh, in Shetland, and Stornoway, in the Western Isles, with a co-ordination HQ at RAF Kinloss.
The announcement will also propose the use of private-sector finance to fund a new generation of helicopters to replace ageing RAF and Navy Sea Kings.
The aim of the Treasury-driven initiative is to remove from the hard-pressed MoD budget the burden of a service that has the main function of rescuing civilians without stopping RAF and Navy personnel gaining essential training from carrying out the work.
Some 97 out of 100 flights involve civilian rather than armed services emergencies.
MoD sources have been denying for weeks that the outcome of a wide-ranging review of the service would be the sale of teams at the 12 search-and-rescue bases around the UK coast and the imposition of charges for those rescued.
MPs across the north made it clear last night that they expected military involvement to continue and said they would fight to prevent any further reduction in RAF or Navy participation.
Orkney and Shetland Liberal Democrat Alistair Carmichael warned that the new arrangements would receive "the closest possible scrutiny" and said other private finance initiatives of this type "have given very poor value to the taxpayer".
"Most important of all, the balance sheet should never be allowed to come before safety considerations," he said.
"This service is vital for many of our coastal and island communities and that must not be lost in the drive for economy."
Moray SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "The MoD needs to ensure that military aircrew continue to be trained to the highest standards in search and rescue as this is essential for the future wellbeing of servicemen and women in combat zones.
"Concerns remain about the privatisation agenda of the Labour Government, which appears to be more to do with cost-cutting and belt-tightening rather than the optimal provision of defence services.
"It is ironic that a Labour administration is privatising lifeline services which were not even considered by the Tories under Margaret Thatcher."
US-owned Bristow and Canadian-based CHC Scotia Helicopters have been reported to be competing for a £40million-a-year contract, possibly running for 25 years, to provide aircraft.
CHC is due to take over the provision of new rescue helicopters at Sumburgh and Stornoway after winning a contract awarded previously to Bristow.
Military sources have also been reported as saying the provision of helicopters, crews, training, maintenance and operation of rescue centres were all "up for grabs".
The move follows the announcement last month that 60 north firefighters had been put on alert to combat large-scale disasters at sea.
They are one of a dozen teams around the UK that will use search-and-rescue helicopters to get to the scene of emergencies.
A team from the new Maritime Incident Response Group was flown to the stricken cruise ship Calypso at the weekend after a fire started in the vessel's engine room in the English Channel.
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If a mere civvie can comment....
I've long thought (as a keen mountaineer) that the RAF/RN have been a victim of their own success in respect of the SAR tasking - they provide such an efficient service that there is no need to provide a civillian rescue service in many areas of the country (It's noticable that in those areas without MIlSAR coverage, then you have the HMCG Helos).
There are a couple of other issues that may affect this - if a Civillian organisation takes over with civillian rescue as it's prime task, it may lead to an increase in demand for 'costs recovery' - ie get back from the rescued the costs of the rescue - and an need for insurance for those who require the services of the SAR.
Also, am I cynical in thinking that nay SAR purchase will be the S-92 as a sop to Sikorsky for the US101?
I've long thought (as a keen mountaineer) that the RAF/RN have been a victim of their own success in respect of the SAR tasking - they provide such an efficient service that there is no need to provide a civillian rescue service in many areas of the country (It's noticable that in those areas without MIlSAR coverage, then you have the HMCG Helos).
There are a couple of other issues that may affect this - if a Civillian organisation takes over with civillian rescue as it's prime task, it may lead to an increase in demand for 'costs recovery' - ie get back from the rescued the costs of the rescue - and an need for insurance for those who require the services of the SAR.
Also, am I cynical in thinking that nay SAR purchase will be the S-92 as a sop to Sikorsky for the US101?
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Announcement on the MOD website here:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...eNextStage.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...eNextStage.htm
It is planned to replace this capability with a single contract that will still however retain a high proportion of military aircrew alongside civilian aircrew trained to the same high standards. The service will continue to be managed jointly by the MOD and the MCA.
Although decisions regarding helicopters, basing and contract duration have yet to be taken and will now be subject to dialogue with industry, the SAR-H project has developed a detailed requirement specification to ensure that all aspects of the service requirement are met. Key performance indicators will be set and performance measured against these to ensure the high level of service is maintained.
Although decisions regarding helicopters, basing and contract duration have yet to be taken and will now be subject to dialogue with industry, the SAR-H project has developed a detailed requirement specification to ensure that all aspects of the service requirement are met. Key performance indicators will be set and performance measured against these to ensure the high level of service is maintained.
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Frankly, I'd rather see some of the FJ fleet go rather than a single SAR asset.
Lets face it - we just can't compete with the big boys anymore because successive gov'ts have made a complete c0ck-up of running this country since the end of WW2. We are not blameless either. We have all bought far too many nice cheap imports from China and the EU while some would argue that younger generations (mine included) just don't know the meaning of hard work but want a high-class lifestyle.
As a result, we have no manufacturing industry, no fishing industry, an underfunded and failing argiculture industry and an overpaid and overstaffed civil service. What GNP we have left comes from shuffling paper and money about. Grrrrrrrrrr.
Its no wonder why we can't afford a decent military anymore!
Sadly, this is componded by almost everyone in positions of control in the civil service/NHS/Police/military knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing!?
Rant mode to standby
Lets face it - we just can't compete with the big boys anymore because successive gov'ts have made a complete c0ck-up of running this country since the end of WW2. We are not blameless either. We have all bought far too many nice cheap imports from China and the EU while some would argue that younger generations (mine included) just don't know the meaning of hard work but want a high-class lifestyle.
As a result, we have no manufacturing industry, no fishing industry, an underfunded and failing argiculture industry and an overpaid and overstaffed civil service. What GNP we have left comes from shuffling paper and money about. Grrrrrrrrrr.
Its no wonder why we can't afford a decent military anymore!
Sadly, this is componded by almost everyone in positions of control in the civil service/NHS/Police/military knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing!?
Rant mode to standby
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Originally Posted by JTIDS
On the bright side a civilian company would be able to buy a new helicopter for the task based on capability and cost, rather than subsidising Westlands!
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Letter in FT today from Jim McAusian, General Sec of BALPA entitled 'Search and Rescue will not be compromised.'
What caught my eye was his argument that the employment of civvy firms in the SAR role will free up 'scarce' mil assets 'to be deployed where they are most needed.'
I'm fairly sure this was the same assertion put forward by parties with vested interests in the retention of work at DARA St Athan when in fact depth hubs such as at Marham were taking work away.
IMHO, UK PLC and vote hungry politicians seem happy for Service personel to be deployed automotons with no need for time with family or any stability. Despite the latest 'warfighter first' mantra, there has to be some respite for the guys and gals!
What caught my eye was his argument that the employment of civvy firms in the SAR role will free up 'scarce' mil assets 'to be deployed where they are most needed.'
I'm fairly sure this was the same assertion put forward by parties with vested interests in the retention of work at DARA St Athan when in fact depth hubs such as at Marham were taking work away.
IMHO, UK PLC and vote hungry politicians seem happy for Service personel to be deployed automotons with no need for time with family or any stability. Despite the latest 'warfighter first' mantra, there has to be some respite for the guys and gals!