Gloster Javelin ...its short career
Gloster Javelin ...its short career
Any ex-Javelin crew/experts who can explain why it had such a short career.
Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.
On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.
There must be a reason..
Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.
On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.
There must be a reason..
Neither an expert nor a Javelin type, but I'll have a crack at opening the batting here: Duncan Sandys...
There is an interesting Air Historical Branch report, declassified some years ago and supposedly in line for publication by Frank Cass (now Routledge after a takeover), which addresses some of the key issues about the position of the RAF in the period 1956-63ish. The RAF's AD units were to be cut back even before Sandys' ahem...somewhat over-optimitic predictions about the obsolence of manned aircraft were made government policy via a White Paper. The rationale behind this was that a manned interceptor was of little use against an IRBM or an ICBM, and that the cash would be better spent having a smaller interceptor force and building Bomber Command to a strength of 23 Squadrons (20 of which were to be Vulcan and Victor units).
The original plan was that the Javelin was to be largely replaced by the Lightning, with a projected 13 Lightning squadrons to be formed. However, once the debate on the strength of the AD force got into its stride, the number of Javelin units was to decrease notably. Once Sandys slashed the size of the RAF, the disappearance of Javelin units increased in pace.
Also, don't forget that the service life of aircraft was relatively short at that time. The Lighting wasn't meant to stay in service until 1988 - this would have been the equivalent of the Sopwith Camel equipping Fighter Command throughout the Second World War and into the 1950s, and would have been regarded with some incredulity.
Put these factors together with what appear to have been the Javelin's somewhat challenging flying characteristics (no aerobatics allowed, IIRC), and I'd say that the relatively swift departure of the type isn't that surprising as a result.
There is an interesting Air Historical Branch report, declassified some years ago and supposedly in line for publication by Frank Cass (now Routledge after a takeover), which addresses some of the key issues about the position of the RAF in the period 1956-63ish. The RAF's AD units were to be cut back even before Sandys' ahem...somewhat over-optimitic predictions about the obsolence of manned aircraft were made government policy via a White Paper. The rationale behind this was that a manned interceptor was of little use against an IRBM or an ICBM, and that the cash would be better spent having a smaller interceptor force and building Bomber Command to a strength of 23 Squadrons (20 of which were to be Vulcan and Victor units).
The original plan was that the Javelin was to be largely replaced by the Lightning, with a projected 13 Lightning squadrons to be formed. However, once the debate on the strength of the AD force got into its stride, the number of Javelin units was to decrease notably. Once Sandys slashed the size of the RAF, the disappearance of Javelin units increased in pace.
Also, don't forget that the service life of aircraft was relatively short at that time. The Lighting wasn't meant to stay in service until 1988 - this would have been the equivalent of the Sopwith Camel equipping Fighter Command throughout the Second World War and into the 1950s, and would have been regarded with some incredulity.
Put these factors together with what appear to have been the Javelin's somewhat challenging flying characteristics (no aerobatics allowed, IIRC), and I'd say that the relatively swift departure of the type isn't that surprising as a result.
As my learned friend infers, the Javelin's career wasn't short by the standards of the day - look at the Venom, Vampire and Meteor Night Fighters, the Swift, Valiant and Valetta, the Sycamore and the Belvedere, etc. Aircraft like the Canberra and the Hunter were the exception, not the rule.
Moreover, the Lightning/Firestreak/Red Top combination was always intended to replace the Javelin, with a 20 squadron force considered briefly, IIRC.
It was also a nightmare to maintain, with very poor availability, and it wasn't fast enough or fast climbing enough to get to where it needed to be.
Moreover, the Lightning/Firestreak/Red Top combination was always intended to replace the Javelin, with a 20 squadron force considered briefly, IIRC.
It was also a nightmare to maintain, with very poor availability, and it wasn't fast enough or fast climbing enough to get to where it needed to be.
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I think I'm correct in saying the Javelin was the only non-aerobatic fighter ever to enter service, and it was slower in re-heat than without it! I heard a comment reputedly attributed to an American exchange pilot that "only the Brits could design an aircraft on which drag equated to the amount of thrust available".
I served at Tengah when both 60 and 64 had Javelins, and they were a class act in loss and accident statistics. Some years later, in 1975 while in ANZUK, I noticed a large pile of Javelin airframes stacked on a corner of Seletar airfield. Just in case you were wondering what happened to the 60 and 64 aircraft. They might still be there!
I served at Tengah when both 60 and 64 had Javelins, and they were a class act in loss and accident statistics. Some years later, in 1975 while in ANZUK, I noticed a large pile of Javelin airframes stacked on a corner of Seletar airfield. Just in case you were wondering what happened to the 60 and 64 aircraft. They might still be there!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As I remember we got as far as the FAW9 version. The F4 instructors at Coningsby said there was nothing wrong with the concept and the supersonic, thin wing version would have been a much better performer.
Would it have been able to match its contemporaries like the F4 however? Its high tail on a delta was, I believe, it main problem.
Would it have been able to match its contemporaries like the F4 however? Its high tail on a delta was, I believe, it main problem.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
This was in the era of tripwire, the sole responsibility of the fighter force was to protect the V bomber bases till the force was flushed and airborne, at which stage their job was done. In order to do so the enemy bombers had to be detected at maximum radar range and the fighters scrambled to interecept them before they reached stand-off missile launch range, which meant a speed of about M2.0 and a phenomenal climb rate. Hence the design of the Saunders-Roe S.R.53 and the Lightning. Duncan's review killed the new fighters and the Lightning entered service as a stop gap measure. There was no role for the Javelin in such a scenario.
Last edited by ORAC; 16th Apr 2006 at 08:53.
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Samuel: Not strictly correct to say it was non-aerobatic, but aeros in the looping plane were forbidden.
The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.
The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.
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My old man used to relate a story that he vividly recalls seeing one falling out of the sky in flames at Horsham St Faiths.....Did they have a number of engine fires?
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Samuel
I would submit that every jet aeroplane that has ever flown has a drag equal to its thrust
The issue is at what speed this occurs.
I would submit that every jet aeroplane that has ever flown has a drag equal to its thrust
The issue is at what speed this occurs.
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You've probably already found this:
Javelin Spotters' Site
The Javelin always struck me as having come out of someone's imagination of what a supersonic Interceptor should look like, with everything fitted-in to the space available after the shape had been created. I always thought it looked very odd with its extended nosewheel leg - as if same was necessary following a dreadful error with the AoA required of the wingfor take-off that wasn't discovered until too late! But I have never even seen one fly, so what do I know. One thing does occur to me though; if (a BIG if, I acknowledge) Typhoon were marinised to fly off a boat, would it need a similar huge nosewheel leg????
Regards
STH
Javelin Spotters' Site
The Javelin always struck me as having come out of someone's imagination of what a supersonic Interceptor should look like, with everything fitted-in to the space available after the shape had been created. I always thought it looked very odd with its extended nosewheel leg - as if same was necessary following a dreadful error with the AoA required of the wingfor take-off that wasn't discovered until too late! But I have never even seen one fly, so what do I know. One thing does occur to me though; if (a BIG if, I acknowledge) Typhoon were marinised to fly off a boat, would it need a similar huge nosewheel leg????
Regards
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 16th Apr 2006 at 16:47.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A Vulcan got on the tail of a Javelin?
You mean which Vulcan did NOT get on the tail of a Javelin. We could out turn and out climb at any time.
As for falling out of the sky in flames, I believe this was a 'centre-line' closure problem. I could be wrong but I believe that the combustion chamber was in two halves and at high temperatures it form a figure of 8 rather than an O. The turbine blades with then hit the walls and induce an engine failure and fire. I think the Victor and possibly the Canberra all suffered from this.
Bit like the Valiant main spar 'fatigue', or the Comet cabin fatigue, Metallurgy was in its infancy. Digressing, the Valiant spars were found to become fatigued after being made and before they were fitted to the aircraft.
You mean which Vulcan did NOT get on the tail of a Javelin. We could out turn and out climb at any time.
As for falling out of the sky in flames, I believe this was a 'centre-line' closure problem. I could be wrong but I believe that the combustion chamber was in two halves and at high temperatures it form a figure of 8 rather than an O. The turbine blades with then hit the walls and induce an engine failure and fire. I think the Victor and possibly the Canberra all suffered from this.
Bit like the Valiant main spar 'fatigue', or the Comet cabin fatigue, Metallurgy was in its infancy. Digressing, the Valiant spars were found to become fatigued after being made and before they were fitted to the aircraft.
I was always told that the Javelin had an unusual fatigue programme, in which the forward attachment points for the underfuselage tanks would fail, leaving them to drop onto the ground, still attached at the rear. If this happened while taxying, they would split and catch fire.....
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I used to fly with a nav who'd ejected twice from Javelins. I think I recall him telling me that its high tail and delta wing gave it a superstall problem - hence the restriction on looping manouevres.
Gloster Javelin
Sir TH - thanks for the web site - new to me
The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence
The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently
) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)
Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,
The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence
The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently
) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,
Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo
Sir TH - thanks for the web site - new to me
The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence
The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)
Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,
The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence
The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently
) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Remember that even IRCMs were not in production when the SR53/Lightning were in development, the only threat to the UK was the manned bomber, the Thor was not commissioned till 1959 and the Soviet equivalents could not reach the UK. When the Soviet IRBM/ICBM could reach the UK the role of the AD force during Tripwire became even more redundant, being limited to the peacetime air policing role and the engagement of the follow on manned bomber raid in war - which they had insufficient endurance to meet.
Which lead to the farce of the Lightning force doing survival scrambles followed by a recovery and turnround to meet the attack. Anyone else remember the Binbrook "trombone" across the Blueway? What fun we had trying to slot the F3s in before the F6s, let alone those that missed their stream numbers....
Which lead to the farce of the Lightning force doing survival scrambles followed by a recovery and turnround to meet the attack. Anyone else remember the Binbrook "trombone" across the Blueway? What fun we had trying to slot the F3s in before the F6s, let alone those that missed their stream numbers....
Last edited by ORAC; 17th Apr 2006 at 04:11.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
<<There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence>>
Mixed metaphor here.
The Bloodhound 'ring of steel' was around the main bases only and intended to protect the force before dispersal. If there was time then the force would disperse in 2s and 4s with only the original QRA (2 or 3 ac) increased to 4 ac and on the main bases. Cranwell of course was within the ring of steel.
Had the force not dispered it is questionable how many would have got airborne - imagine 24 ac even at 15 sec interval.
The Bloodhound 1 force was quite large with sites at places like Marham, Woolfox Lodge, Haxey, Woodhall Spa etc. I don't know all of them by any means. They were also intended to protect the Thor bases at Coleby Grange, Shepherds Grove etc. That requirement ceased about 1962 and the Mk 2 Bloodhounds were deployed in their stead.
The Mk 1 Boodhound was a short range, high level missile although one engaged a 500 foot target at about 8 miles. A Bloodhound 2 engaged a target at a considerably lower altitude. I remember the height but not the range - near 5 miles I seem to recall.
Mixed metaphor here.
The Bloodhound 'ring of steel' was around the main bases only and intended to protect the force before dispersal. If there was time then the force would disperse in 2s and 4s with only the original QRA (2 or 3 ac) increased to 4 ac and on the main bases. Cranwell of course was within the ring of steel.
Had the force not dispered it is questionable how many would have got airborne - imagine 24 ac even at 15 sec interval.
The Bloodhound 1 force was quite large with sites at places like Marham, Woolfox Lodge, Haxey, Woodhall Spa etc. I don't know all of them by any means. They were also intended to protect the Thor bases at Coleby Grange, Shepherds Grove etc. That requirement ceased about 1962 and the Mk 2 Bloodhounds were deployed in their stead.
The Mk 1 Boodhound was a short range, high level missile although one engaged a 500 foot target at about 8 miles. A Bloodhound 2 engaged a target at a considerably lower altitude. I remember the height but not the range - near 5 miles I seem to recall.
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Jackonicko.
Come on. It's time to fess up. You've just blown your journo cover, so what do you really do?
"As my learned friend infers, the Javelin's career wasn't short by the standards of the day ..."
He implies.
You infer.
Sorry.
I'll get me coat.
Come on. It's time to fess up. You've just blown your journo cover, so what do you really do?
"As my learned friend infers, the Javelin's career wasn't short by the standards of the day ..."
He implies.
You infer.
Sorry.
I'll get me coat.
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If I might jump to Jackonicko's defence ... he has never claimed to be anything other than a journalist on these forums. Whether you agree with him is another matter.
At least you know what you're getting with Jacko - not like some of the currant bun types who occasionally appear on here (normally just following some alleged mil cock-up), freshly registered and in search of a cheap headline.
In the main, I would say Jacko brings as much to these forums as anyone else, and more than most.
STH
At least you know what you're getting with Jacko - not like some of the currant bun types who occasionally appear on here (normally just following some alleged mil cock-up), freshly registered and in search of a cheap headline.
In the main, I would say Jacko brings as much to these forums as anyone else, and more than most.
STH