Gloster Javelin ...its short career
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Thank you John, but it was a quote, perhaps apocryphal, and besides you're smarter and infinitely more knowlegeable than Me!
Again, from memory, I recall an article some years ago written by Bill Gunston in which he compared every British post-war jet issued to the RAF with an American equivalent of the time,and in most cases the Yanks came out on top with a superior product.
In defence of Jacko, he has never denied being a journo.
Again, from memory, I recall an article some years ago written by Bill Gunston in which he compared every British post-war jet issued to the RAF with an American equivalent of the time,and in most cases the Yanks came out on top with a superior product.
In defence of Jacko, he has never denied being a journo.
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Javelins ... a good word
Um, is it not about time that someone had a good word to say about the Javelin?
They were much used for trials and experimental work and .. er, the Mk8 had a pretty good radar at the time and I believe it could be flown in some quite dreadful weather.
Plus I think some overseas interest was shown, the Belgian air force sniffed around to the extent of conducting an evaluation and ... and there was a pretty red and white Javelin operating from Boscombe Down until the mid-70s.
Besides, it was British! so come on somebody who knows it better than I do, give her at least a few positive words!
As for why the dH design was shunned in favour of Gloster's, a good question! Both were essentially designed to satisfy the same specification but my hasty research suggests that although orders were placed in '49 for both RAF and RN Vixens both orders were then cancelled, apart from two prototypes. Then some five years later the RN got enthusiastic again and changes were made to make the design sea-worthy with the title Sea Vixen appearing in 1955.
And one day at Farnborough "Simon's Circus" flew Sea Vixens in such a way as to remain in my memory almost 40 years later... but for all that I don't know that any other air force looked at the Sea Vixen as a purchase.
Which is perhaps odd because with all due respect to the Javelin, the dH design was much more dashing to the eye and faster too ...
That said, what "they" SHOULD have done back then was to develop the Folland Gnat ...I have vague memories of picking up a (Farnborough) brochure regarding a supersonic Gnat ... and I do know that it was good enough to sell more overseas than the Javelin and the Sea Vixen combined!
And finally, because where I am writing from it is deep into the night and way past my bed time ... I would suggest, with as much energy as I can summon ... that Folland's or Mr Petter's Gnat was the forerunner of the F-16 and IF it had been developed could well have been the F-16 many years before the US put it all together.
Right, don't know what has got into me .. two posts in just a few days after a year of silence ... most odd.
They were much used for trials and experimental work and .. er, the Mk8 had a pretty good radar at the time and I believe it could be flown in some quite dreadful weather.
Plus I think some overseas interest was shown, the Belgian air force sniffed around to the extent of conducting an evaluation and ... and there was a pretty red and white Javelin operating from Boscombe Down until the mid-70s.
Besides, it was British! so come on somebody who knows it better than I do, give her at least a few positive words!
As for why the dH design was shunned in favour of Gloster's, a good question! Both were essentially designed to satisfy the same specification but my hasty research suggests that although orders were placed in '49 for both RAF and RN Vixens both orders were then cancelled, apart from two prototypes. Then some five years later the RN got enthusiastic again and changes were made to make the design sea-worthy with the title Sea Vixen appearing in 1955.
And one day at Farnborough "Simon's Circus" flew Sea Vixens in such a way as to remain in my memory almost 40 years later... but for all that I don't know that any other air force looked at the Sea Vixen as a purchase.
Which is perhaps odd because with all due respect to the Javelin, the dH design was much more dashing to the eye and faster too ...
That said, what "they" SHOULD have done back then was to develop the Folland Gnat ...I have vague memories of picking up a (Farnborough) brochure regarding a supersonic Gnat ... and I do know that it was good enough to sell more overseas than the Javelin and the Sea Vixen combined!
And finally, because where I am writing from it is deep into the night and way past my bed time ... I would suggest, with as much energy as I can summon ... that Folland's or Mr Petter's Gnat was the forerunner of the F-16 and IF it had been developed could well have been the F-16 many years before the US put it all together.
Right, don't know what has got into me .. two posts in just a few days after a year of silence ... most odd.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The DH110 was the competitor against the Javelin for the RAF night fighter contract. On 6 September 1952 one of the 2 prototypes, WG236, broke up in midair killing the crew and 27 of the spectators. The next month the RAF, possibly influenced by the disaster, selected the Javelin. The RN persevered, since thw Javelin wasn´t carrier capable, and it evolved into the Sea Vixen.
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Originally Posted by henry crun
Samuel: Not strictly correct to say it was non-aerobatic, but aeros in the looping plane were forbidden.
The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.
The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.
Also, after a rummage through Darbouys dear departed dad's memorabilia, the frontispiece from the 1957 Leuchars yearbook:
There must have been two of them doing it in the same piece of sky, together, to make the pic.
Then again, given the old girls dragmasterly qualities, they may only be throttled back at the top-of-drop
Last edited by Ray Darbouy; 18th Apr 2006 at 20:39.
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And another reason why the RAF did not buy the Sea Vixen? Because it was a naval aircraft. Just like the Buccanneer, Scimitar, Lynx, Attacker, Sea Hawk etc etc.
Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.
Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.
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The coup de grace
One remembers chaps coming back from Tengah. The word being that the actual straw that broke the camels back was severe cracking in the tail fins. Being obsolescent, the old girls were effectively cat 5'd as they taxied in 
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
And another reason why the RAF did not buy the Sea Vixen? Because it was a naval aircraft. Just like the Buccanneer, Scimitar, Lynx, Attacker, Sea Hawk etc etc.
Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.
Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.
- despite all the planes the UK air industry designed/produced for them in the fifties..
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I also heard, from someone who flew both the standard issue US F4 and the British Spey version, that the re-engineering was more political than practical!
"But both ended up buying American !! - despite all the planes the UK air industry designed/produced for them in the fifties". Perhaps Bill Gunston was right?
"But both ended up buying American !! - despite all the planes the UK air industry designed/produced for them in the fifties". Perhaps Bill Gunston was right?
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Originally Posted by Samuel
I served at Tengah when both 60 and 64 had Javelins, and they were a class act in loss and accident statistics. Some years later, in 1975 while in ANZUK, I noticed a large pile of Javelin airframes stacked on a corner of Seletar airfield. Just in case you were wondering what happened to the 60 and 64 aircraft. They might still be there!
Oi, that's ANZUK, not ANZAC for some of them impudent young pups out there
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...orea/anzuk.htm
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Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo
Any ex-Javelin crew/experts who can explain why it had such a short career.
Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.
On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.
There must be a reason..
Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.
On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.
There must be a reason..
Given that the Soviets were in a state of total Stalinist, paranoid security where a loose word got you shot, and that was only between Russian design offices, we were not too clued up on the Bison, Badger, and Bear which only came out and into our ken by the mid 50's. By this time, cutting edge wise, our chaps were probably polishing a turd, sorry.
Anyway, the guys did their stuff, 50 years ago, as duty calls, so, time for some pics. Back to the time where aircrew wore collar and tie with the mask and bone dome, intakes were proper round things with no funny stuff, there were sgt pilots on front line jets and the chaps wore their bonnets for head protection and saluting the sirs as they taxied out
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That link doesn't work, and wasn't that insignia issed to ......err....the Army? I certainly never wore it!
Also, this link, I'm sorry to point out, is seriously misinformed, especially on the air component at Tengah!
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...orea/anzuk.htm
Also, this link, I'm sorry to point out, is seriously misinformed, especially on the air component at Tengah!
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...orea/anzuk.htm
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Originally Posted by Samuel
That link doesn't work, and wasn't that insignia issed to ......err....the Army? I certainly never wore it!
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...orea/anzuk.htm
Certainly was issued to the RAF! Wasn't worn on ones KD. Didn't you get yours old boy, or were you seconded to the SAF? Army were at Nee Soon Barracks.
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Whyever did we do Javelin?
1. Lots of schemes/prototypes, 1949, no production funds as MBF took it all.
2. Korea seen as Spain-style tryout for Red surge on Antwerp, c.1955. Re-arm W.Germany, lots of MSP-$ for anything likely to fly for 1955. $ paid for Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms, Gannets, Swifts, Hunters, Javelins, which is why we took so many, in interim mod. states intended for just a couple of years' utilisation, no Major Service. Javelin chosen over DH.110 as RAF F(AW) because Sapphire/ reheat seen in 1952 as less risky than Avon/reheat and because Gloster/HSAL were less loaded than the DH Enterprise.
3. 1955/56 were indeed dodgy. Threat thereafter seen to change: no flock of Bulls or Badgers, but stand-off warheads on ASMs. Get up high - so rocket- boost notions, which became Lightning plus long range all-aspect AAM. HSAL bid thin-wing Javelin, but Gloster had lost Systems credibility.
2. Korea seen as Spain-style tryout for Red surge on Antwerp, c.1955. Re-arm W.Germany, lots of MSP-$ for anything likely to fly for 1955. $ paid for Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms, Gannets, Swifts, Hunters, Javelins, which is why we took so many, in interim mod. states intended for just a couple of years' utilisation, no Major Service. Javelin chosen over DH.110 as RAF F(AW) because Sapphire/ reheat seen in 1952 as less risky than Avon/reheat and because Gloster/HSAL were less loaded than the DH Enterprise.
3. 1955/56 were indeed dodgy. Threat thereafter seen to change: no flock of Bulls or Badgers, but stand-off warheads on ASMs. Get up high - so rocket- boost notions, which became Lightning plus long range all-aspect AAM. HSAL bid thin-wing Javelin, but Gloster had lost Systems credibility.
Possible answer..
..is that by 1960 the main threat was seen to be a missile strike for which the Javelin wasn't much use.
The Lightning could be both a fighter and an interceptor and whilst Javelin was just a (better) interceptor, so get rid of the Javelin and save some money..
Doesn't explain what all those Bloodhound missiles were for though?
Reassure Joe Public???
The Lightning could be both a fighter and an interceptor and whilst Javelin was just a (better) interceptor, so get rid of the Javelin and save some money..
Doesn't explain what all those Bloodhound missiles were for though?
Reassure Joe Public???
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GIVE CREDIT
I was talking last night with an old mate who was once the youngest Javelin pilot before Dick Johns assumed the mantle. He made the point that the Javelin was designed as a high level bomber interceptor yet while it could reach Mach 0.96 at FL550, it could also intercept a MiG-21 at 200ft and fly at 400kts on one engine. Not bad for a 1944 design!
Cunning Artificer
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Doesn't explain what all those Bloodhound missiles were for though?
and fly at 400kts on one engine. Not bad for a 1944 design!
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Just to put in a plug for the Javelin and Valiant. They were a superb flight-refuelling duo.
One Valiant could trail one Javelin from UK to Singapore stopping over at El Adem, Aden and Gan. Made life simple, no Tanker-tanker brackets, no priming the route with tankers and launching tankers to recover the inbound tanker etc.
At Gan in Sep 64 3 Valiants and 3 Javelins streamed through one day. Can't remember exactly but they may even have double staged. Imagine how many prods to get a Lightning out there. I know they did it to get 74 there and back.
One Valiant could trail one Javelin from UK to Singapore stopping over at El Adem, Aden and Gan. Made life simple, no Tanker-tanker brackets, no priming the route with tankers and launching tankers to recover the inbound tanker etc.
At Gan in Sep 64 3 Valiants and 3 Javelins streamed through one day. Can't remember exactly but they may even have double staged. Imagine how many prods to get a Lightning out there. I know they did it to get 74 there and back.
Nuclear tipped Bloodhound
Originally Posted by Blacksheep
One plan was to put nuclear warheads on them and explode them next to the 'incoming' before they reached their targets. Would have been the ultimate fireworks display if it ever happened...
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
Imagine how many prods to get a Lightning out there. I know they did it to get 74 there and back.