Bun fight between UK Marines and army over new roles........
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Bun fight between UK Marines and army over new roles........
Extract from DT....... anyone know of an army link to pass this on to?... Cheers
A battle has broken out over the role of the first Army commando unit to be formed since the Second World War, with the Royal Marines claiming that the infantry lack "the suitable calibre" to join their force, reports the Daily Telegraph.
While the Marines believe they are doing the Army a good turn by saving an infantry battalion from cuts, senior soldiers have said that they are bringing the under-manned commandos up to full brigade strength. The new unit will be formed when two infantry regiments are amalgamated next year to become 1 Bn The Rifles.
Soldiers from the Devon and Dorsets and the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Light Infantry are already conducting extra physical training in preparation to become part of the Royal Marines tough 3 Commando Brigade, which at its core has three formations of about 550 men each.
The battalions officers and men have been unable to hide their excitement at joining the commando brigade but they will be disappointed at the role the Marines have proposed for them.
Under plans seen by The Daily Telegraph, the wartime role of 1 Rifles will be to protect rear head quarters and supply depots and guard prisoners of war. At best they will be allowed to defend a port or oil refinery after it has been stormed by Marines in helicopters or assault landing craft.
"There is the option of them coming across as fully fledged commandos with the same kind of equipment and training as us," a senior Marine officer said.
"But its a non-starter as the Army dont have the right calibre of people to do that and we dont have the capacity or space to train a battalion of 600 men."
The Army formation will also be used as 3 Commandos "roulement" battalion, fulfilling its slots of mundane six month tours in less popular operations such as Kosovo, Northern Ireland or Iraq while the Marines unit would be kept in high readiness for specialised operations. "What we have at the moment is a highly capable organisation being essentially out of the picture for almost 12 months used on these tours," the senior Marine officer said.
"We want to keep the three commando units for what they are there are best at - as an expeditionary force that can also support special forces."
While the Marines believe it is "not an option" for the soldiers to become a fully fledged commando unit, senior Army sources have indicated that, although in the short term 1 Rifles will take a back seat role, within three or four years they will be fully commando trained and equipped.
"Our view is to get stuck in and become commandos but the Navy seem to have rather backward approach where they see them as poor second cousins who will free up the commandos to go off and do special operations," an Army source said.
A source from an infantry unit criticised the Marines attitude towards their potential new commando colleagues.
"What they are proposing, essentially giving us rear security, would be intolerable," he said.
"No commanding officer of a battalion of line infantry, having served in Afghanistan and Iraq, would accept that under any circumstances.
"I also find it amazing that they think raw recruits from the Royal Marines would be of a higher calibre than a soldier who has completed three or four very tough operational tours."
The new unit will come under Royal Navy command but will be paid for by the Army.
GengisK
A battle has broken out over the role of the first Army commando unit to be formed since the Second World War, with the Royal Marines claiming that the infantry lack "the suitable calibre" to join their force, reports the Daily Telegraph.
While the Marines believe they are doing the Army a good turn by saving an infantry battalion from cuts, senior soldiers have said that they are bringing the under-manned commandos up to full brigade strength. The new unit will be formed when two infantry regiments are amalgamated next year to become 1 Bn The Rifles.
Soldiers from the Devon and Dorsets and the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Light Infantry are already conducting extra physical training in preparation to become part of the Royal Marines tough 3 Commando Brigade, which at its core has three formations of about 550 men each.
The battalions officers and men have been unable to hide their excitement at joining the commando brigade but they will be disappointed at the role the Marines have proposed for them.
Under plans seen by The Daily Telegraph, the wartime role of 1 Rifles will be to protect rear head quarters and supply depots and guard prisoners of war. At best they will be allowed to defend a port or oil refinery after it has been stormed by Marines in helicopters or assault landing craft.
"There is the option of them coming across as fully fledged commandos with the same kind of equipment and training as us," a senior Marine officer said.
"But its a non-starter as the Army dont have the right calibre of people to do that and we dont have the capacity or space to train a battalion of 600 men."
The Army formation will also be used as 3 Commandos "roulement" battalion, fulfilling its slots of mundane six month tours in less popular operations such as Kosovo, Northern Ireland or Iraq while the Marines unit would be kept in high readiness for specialised operations. "What we have at the moment is a highly capable organisation being essentially out of the picture for almost 12 months used on these tours," the senior Marine officer said.
"We want to keep the three commando units for what they are there are best at - as an expeditionary force that can also support special forces."
While the Marines believe it is "not an option" for the soldiers to become a fully fledged commando unit, senior Army sources have indicated that, although in the short term 1 Rifles will take a back seat role, within three or four years they will be fully commando trained and equipped.
"Our view is to get stuck in and become commandos but the Navy seem to have rather backward approach where they see them as poor second cousins who will free up the commandos to go off and do special operations," an Army source said.
A source from an infantry unit criticised the Marines attitude towards their potential new commando colleagues.
"What they are proposing, essentially giving us rear security, would be intolerable," he said.
"No commanding officer of a battalion of line infantry, having served in Afghanistan and Iraq, would accept that under any circumstances.
"I also find it amazing that they think raw recruits from the Royal Marines would be of a higher calibre than a soldier who has completed three or four very tough operational tours."
The new unit will come under Royal Navy command but will be paid for by the Army.
GengisK
No one can say the Marines (Royal or US) are short of Espirit or fighting spirit. After all "ARMY" stands for "Ain't real Marines yet!"
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This story has been rumbling on for a while.
There is nothing new in this as a role for the Army, indeed the RM has only really coveted the Commando role since WW2 - prior to that their infantry Arm was the RM Light Infantry. Several Army regts have accompanied the RN throughout history and engaged in 'ship to objective manoeuvre'. Indeed the Royal Green Jackets (who will amalgamate with the RGBWLI, DDLI and LI to for RIFLES in Feb 07) has a Naval Crown in its cap badge in commemoration of Nelson's Battle of Copenhagen in 1801 when a company of the Rifle Corps fought aboard ship. Even today, 3 Cdo Bde includes s whole host of Army units including RA and RLC.
The main question seems to be whether 1 RIFLES will form a fourth manoeuvre unit for 3 Cdo Bde or whether it will be restricted to a rear area function as appears to be the fate of the light role bns being assigned to the Army's Armd and Mech manoeuvre bdes (or, if one is to be controversial/realistic (delete on point of view) the entire 19 Lt Bde).
It is argued in other forums that the personnel in 1 RIFLES will not be up to the required standard to operate with the RM; however, that does not take into account that the RIFLES will comprise 8 bns of whom 5 bns will be regular. Amongst these other bns should be sufficient quality to fill a single Bn attached to 3 Cdo Bde. Especially when you consider that one of the regts that will form the RIFLES currently provides a significant amount of personnel to the SF community (including the infamous Mr A McNab).
So what is the 'so what' for this forum? Well, these will be more troops for a light-roled bde. Light-roled units (currently 3 Cdo Bde and 16 AA Bde, but soon to be joined by 19 Lt Bde) have traditionally required significant amounts of battlefield helicopters. Of course, this increase in the lift requirement is being offset by a rapid procurement of additional SH assets (especially as the NAO has highlighted that we don't have sufficient battlefield helicopters for the current requirement) - or maybe they will just have to walk/swim
There is nothing new in this as a role for the Army, indeed the RM has only really coveted the Commando role since WW2 - prior to that their infantry Arm was the RM Light Infantry. Several Army regts have accompanied the RN throughout history and engaged in 'ship to objective manoeuvre'. Indeed the Royal Green Jackets (who will amalgamate with the RGBWLI, DDLI and LI to for RIFLES in Feb 07) has a Naval Crown in its cap badge in commemoration of Nelson's Battle of Copenhagen in 1801 when a company of the Rifle Corps fought aboard ship. Even today, 3 Cdo Bde includes s whole host of Army units including RA and RLC.
The main question seems to be whether 1 RIFLES will form a fourth manoeuvre unit for 3 Cdo Bde or whether it will be restricted to a rear area function as appears to be the fate of the light role bns being assigned to the Army's Armd and Mech manoeuvre bdes (or, if one is to be controversial/realistic (delete on point of view) the entire 19 Lt Bde).
It is argued in other forums that the personnel in 1 RIFLES will not be up to the required standard to operate with the RM; however, that does not take into account that the RIFLES will comprise 8 bns of whom 5 bns will be regular. Amongst these other bns should be sufficient quality to fill a single Bn attached to 3 Cdo Bde. Especially when you consider that one of the regts that will form the RIFLES currently provides a significant amount of personnel to the SF community (including the infamous Mr A McNab).
So what is the 'so what' for this forum? Well, these will be more troops for a light-roled bde. Light-roled units (currently 3 Cdo Bde and 16 AA Bde, but soon to be joined by 19 Lt Bde) have traditionally required significant amounts of battlefield helicopters. Of course, this increase in the lift requirement is being offset by a rapid procurement of additional SH assets (especially as the NAO has highlighted that we don't have sufficient battlefield helicopters for the current requirement) - or maybe they will just have to walk/swim
