Future Carrier (Including Costs)
A bit of light relief....
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...ch/ar-BB1eDpNQ
An SNP supporter has been left red-faced after confusing aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth with the Queen herself. After Police Scotland warned people about restrictions in place while the HMS Queen Elizabeth was in the area, Kerry Newton took to Twitter to question why the Queen was allowed into Scotland given current coronavirus lockdown restrictions.
Thread Starter
Here is an article about US Navy experiments with fast jets in ASW roles
The article is by a former S-3 Viking guy and discusses a number of attempts to find a way for fast jets to contribute to ASW. He then goes on to discuss the role of the SH-3 Sea King, including the questionable use of the limited number of ASW helicopters.
During my time aboard the USS Nimitz and Theodore Roosevelt, the Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron Nine (HS-9) aviators would express their frustration at having to haul cargo, VIPs, and chaplains around while their ASW skills atrophied. In his article, Lieutenant Coogan recommended that utility helicopters (SH-3G models) be utilized to handle all logistics and SAR/plane guard duties. Obviously, as history shows, the common sense of such a smart idea was lost on the Pentagon and Capitol Hill.
Our carriers will usually have Junglies on board for things such as HDS, VERTEP, and some SAR. That will free up the Pingers for ASW and ASuW surveillance. Going to sea routinely might improve some of the attitudes that started to be present in non seagoing WAFUs.
Crowsnest Flies
Each helicopter has a crew of three: two observers (mission and tactical specialists) and one pilot. High above the fleet with their sophisticated sensors, they enable the carrier strike group commander to see, understand and react well beyond the horizon for any air or surface threats. They can also act as a control centre for strike operations between the carrier and the ship’s F-35 Lightning jets.
As old and bold PWO(U) once told me that the Sea King 2/7 also could act as a communications relay for Pingers in the dip.
Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Commander UK Carrier Strike Group, who will direct HMS Queen Elizabeth’s first deployment with the help of his staff, said the new Merlins were the final pieces in the group’s large, complex jigsaw.
“It’s hugely encouraging to see the progress of the Crowsnest trials. Already one the most advanced submarine hunters, the Merlin Crowsnest will offer long-range intelligence and surveillance against surface and airborne threats, and the ability to command and control strike missions,” he said.
“Coupled with the Wildcat attack helicopter, the UK Carrier Strike Group will soon operate one of the most capable and versatile helicopter air groups.”
Commander Ian Varley, the Commanding Officer of 820 Naval Air Squadron, which is dedicated to protecting the carriers, their escorts and support ships*, said his air and ground crew had been working tirelessly to prepare for the carrier mission; almost his entire squadron will be deploying with HMS Queen Elizabeth.
*Also any crisis response shipping or amphibious forces being escorted,
Message from the First Sea Lord
We will operate both carriers, buy more F-35 jets and sort out the support shipping for the carriers.
That links with the amazing deployment that heads east at the end of May, taking in over 40 countries and 70 visits.
Our carriers are the best design in the world. Our jets are the best in the world.
We’re going to use them in NATO and around the world to protect our allies, our interests and our trade.
The article is by a former S-3 Viking guy and discusses a number of attempts to find a way for fast jets to contribute to ASW. He then goes on to discuss the role of the SH-3 Sea King, including the questionable use of the limited number of ASW helicopters.
During my time aboard the USS Nimitz and Theodore Roosevelt, the Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron Nine (HS-9) aviators would express their frustration at having to haul cargo, VIPs, and chaplains around while their ASW skills atrophied. In his article, Lieutenant Coogan recommended that utility helicopters (SH-3G models) be utilized to handle all logistics and SAR/plane guard duties. Obviously, as history shows, the common sense of such a smart idea was lost on the Pentagon and Capitol Hill.
Our carriers will usually have Junglies on board for things such as HDS, VERTEP, and some SAR. That will free up the Pingers for ASW and ASuW surveillance. Going to sea routinely might improve some of the attitudes that started to be present in non seagoing WAFUs.
Crowsnest Flies
Each helicopter has a crew of three: two observers (mission and tactical specialists) and one pilot. High above the fleet with their sophisticated sensors, they enable the carrier strike group commander to see, understand and react well beyond the horizon for any air or surface threats. They can also act as a control centre for strike operations between the carrier and the ship’s F-35 Lightning jets.
As old and bold PWO(U) once told me that the Sea King 2/7 also could act as a communications relay for Pingers in the dip.
Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Commander UK Carrier Strike Group, who will direct HMS Queen Elizabeth’s first deployment with the help of his staff, said the new Merlins were the final pieces in the group’s large, complex jigsaw.
“It’s hugely encouraging to see the progress of the Crowsnest trials. Already one the most advanced submarine hunters, the Merlin Crowsnest will offer long-range intelligence and surveillance against surface and airborne threats, and the ability to command and control strike missions,” he said.
“Coupled with the Wildcat attack helicopter, the UK Carrier Strike Group will soon operate one of the most capable and versatile helicopter air groups.”
Commander Ian Varley, the Commanding Officer of 820 Naval Air Squadron, which is dedicated to protecting the carriers, their escorts and support ships*, said his air and ground crew had been working tirelessly to prepare for the carrier mission; almost his entire squadron will be deploying with HMS Queen Elizabeth.
*Also any crisis response shipping or amphibious forces being escorted,
Message from the First Sea Lord
We will operate both carriers, buy more F-35 jets and sort out the support shipping for the carriers.
That links with the amazing deployment that heads east at the end of May, taking in over 40 countries and 70 visits.
Our carriers are the best design in the world. Our jets are the best in the world.
We’re going to use them in NATO and around the world to protect our allies, our interests and our trade.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 30th Mar 2021 at 12:36. Reason: To add context to mentioning ASW
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Thanks for the propaganda download WEBF, it all sounds amazing. There's just SO much you can do with 9 F35 a handful of Merlin and a giant floating target in some distant Ocean.....
Personally I'd prefer 150 AESA Typhoon, a properly funded flying training system, some C130s and a AEW platform.
Each to their own I guess 🤷
Personally I'd prefer 150 AESA Typhoon, a properly funded flying training system, some C130s and a AEW platform.
Each to their own I guess 🤷
If the Suez Canal were still to be blocked when QNLZ is due to depart for the Far East, would they postpone the sailing, or send it via the South Atlantic instead?
It was built in modules - just disassemble it and send by President Xi's Belt & Road
An attempt at humour dear boy - think what would happen if the QE was east of Suez when the canal was shut...................... embarrassing? certainly inconvenient................
Thread Starter
The Suez closure is a major international issue - with costs and delays caused to merchant shipping shipping having to route around Africa and the Cape of Good Hope, which will also not be without security issues. Naval Forces and things like military logistics can also do this to, but it adds delays.
The CSG21 deployment, however, was supposed to include the Mediterranean After an Exercise called Strike Warrior, which will involve interaction with NATO partners and the task/strike group doing its stuff for NATO, F-35Bs/Lightnings doing air defence and being controlled by Type 45s and other warships, and the ASW Merlins providing constant ASW in conjunction with frigates. They may also been some sorties dropping bombs on ground targets, or exercises putting Royal Marines ashore. The group will then go South to the Mediterranean, for exercises as part of NATO as well as diplomatic visits, before proceeding East of Suez. Somewhere she will probably like up with the US and other forces involved in Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, an important NATO reinforcement exercise. This might be West of Scotland, or it might be in the Mediterranean as the exercise is not just across the Atlantic but right to Southern/Eastern Europe.
NATO is finished if it cannot reinforce by sea, So I think it very unlikely that the Mediterranean would be bypassed. The STDE exercise was postponed from last year due to COVID-19, but life (and deterrence) has to go on.
The CSG21 deployment, however, was supposed to include the Mediterranean After an Exercise called Strike Warrior, which will involve interaction with NATO partners and the task/strike group doing its stuff for NATO, F-35Bs/Lightnings doing air defence and being controlled by Type 45s and other warships, and the ASW Merlins providing constant ASW in conjunction with frigates. They may also been some sorties dropping bombs on ground targets, or exercises putting Royal Marines ashore. The group will then go South to the Mediterranean, for exercises as part of NATO as well as diplomatic visits, before proceeding East of Suez. Somewhere she will probably like up with the US and other forces involved in Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, an important NATO reinforcement exercise. This might be West of Scotland, or it might be in the Mediterranean as the exercise is not just across the Atlantic but right to Southern/Eastern Europe.
NATO is finished if it cannot reinforce by sea, So I think it very unlikely that the Mediterranean would be bypassed. The STDE exercise was postponed from last year due to COVID-19, but life (and deterrence) has to go on.
The Suez closure is a major international issue - with costs and delays caused to merchant shipping shipping having to route around Africa and the Cape of Good Hope, which will also not be without security issues. Naval Forces and things like military logistics can also do this to, but it adds delays.
The CSG21 deployment, however, was supposed to include the Mediterranean After an Exercise called Strike Warrior, which will involve interaction with NATO partners and the task/strike group doing its stuff for NATO, F-35Bs/Lightnings doing air defence and being controlled by Type 45s and other warships, and the ASW Merlins providing constant ASW in conjunction with frigates. They may also been some sorties dropping bombs on ground targets, or exercises putting Royal Marines ashore. The group will then go South to the Mediterranean, for exercises as part of NATO as well as diplomatic visits, before proceeding East of Suez. Somewhere she will probably like up with the US and other forces involved in Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, an important NATO reinforcement exercise. This might be West of Scotland, or it might be in the Mediterranean as the exercise is not just across the Atlantic but right to Southern/Eastern Europe.
NATO is finished if it cannot reinforce by sea, So I think it very unlikely that the Mediterranean would be bypassed. The STDE exercise was postponed from last year due to COVID-19, but life (and deterrence) has to go on.
The CSG21 deployment, however, was supposed to include the Mediterranean After an Exercise called Strike Warrior, which will involve interaction with NATO partners and the task/strike group doing its stuff for NATO, F-35Bs/Lightnings doing air defence and being controlled by Type 45s and other warships, and the ASW Merlins providing constant ASW in conjunction with frigates. They may also been some sorties dropping bombs on ground targets, or exercises putting Royal Marines ashore. The group will then go South to the Mediterranean, for exercises as part of NATO as well as diplomatic visits, before proceeding East of Suez. Somewhere she will probably like up with the US and other forces involved in Exercise Steadfast Defender 21, an important NATO reinforcement exercise. This might be West of Scotland, or it might be in the Mediterranean as the exercise is not just across the Atlantic but right to Southern/Eastern Europe.
NATO is finished if it cannot reinforce by sea, So I think it very unlikely that the Mediterranean would be bypassed. The STDE exercise was postponed from last year due to COVID-19, but life (and deterrence) has to go on.
If they go south I'd assume they'd be diverted to the Falklands for a visit....................
European NATO at this point has an overmatch of some size, in population, economically, technically and also militarily versus Russia.
The European core of NATO is Britain, Spain, France and Germany, with a 'glacis' provided by Poland and the Ukraine, would be a very tough nut for Russia to crack at this point..
I very much believe in prudence, but this seems like rear view mirror planning, dating back to the Fulda Gap days.
Surely a competent national leadership should focus on the new challenges posed by China rather than rehashing 75 year old European issues.
in the days when I could walk up and down Lion's Head in half a day.
" a competent national leadership should focus on the new challenges posed by China "
the problem is that China is a very long way away from Europe. I , personally, don't think that Russia is planning a major action in Europe but they would be happy to retake Belarus and Ukraine and those pesky Balts if the chance was there (not all at once - just as & when the opportunity occurs).
China isn't a direct threat and never can be a direct threat - they can take Taiwan and cause all sorts of problems in the S China Sea but to 99% of Europeans that's not a real threat
the problem is that China is a very long way away from Europe. I , personally, don't think that Russia is planning a major action in Europe but they would be happy to retake Belarus and Ukraine and those pesky Balts if the chance was there (not all at once - just as & when the opportunity occurs).
China isn't a direct threat and never can be a direct threat - they can take Taiwan and cause all sorts of problems in the S China Sea but to 99% of Europeans that's not a real threat
" a competent national leadership should focus on the new challenges posed by China "
the problem is that China is a very long way away from Europe. I , personally, don't think that Russia is planning a major action in Europe but they would be happy to retake Belarus and Ukraine and those pesky Balts if the chance was there (not all at once - just as & when the opportunity occurs).
China isn't a direct threat and never can be a direct threat - they can take Taiwan and cause all sorts of problems in the S China Sea but to 99% of Europeans that's not a real threat
the problem is that China is a very long way away from Europe. I , personally, don't think that Russia is planning a major action in Europe but they would be happy to retake Belarus and Ukraine and those pesky Balts if the chance was there (not all at once - just as & when the opportunity occurs).
China isn't a direct threat and never can be a direct threat - they can take Taiwan and cause all sorts of problems in the S China Sea but to 99% of Europeans that's not a real threat
Afaik, the opium wars started for that same reason, the trade balance got so bad it was cheaper to have a war to even things up.
Leadership is supposed to consider the future, rather than to revisit the past. Maybe we need younger leaders for that reason?
Thread Starter
This seems just wrong to me.
European NATO at this point has an overmatch of some size, in population, economically, technically and also militarily versus Russia.
The European core of NATO is Britain, Spain, France and Germany, with a 'glacis' provided by Poland and the Ukraine, would be a very tough nut for Russia to crack at this point..
I very much believe in prudence, but this seems like rear view mirror planning, dating back to the Fulda Gap days.
Surely a competent national leadership should focus on the new challenges posed by China rather than rehashing 75 year old European issues.
European NATO at this point has an overmatch of some size, in population, economically, technically and also militarily versus Russia.
The European core of NATO is Britain, Spain, France and Germany, with a 'glacis' provided by Poland and the Ukraine, would be a very tough nut for Russia to crack at this point..
I very much believe in prudence, but this seems like rear view mirror planning, dating back to the Fulda Gap days.
Surely a competent national leadership should focus on the new challenges posed by China rather than rehashing 75 year old European issues.
NATO is nothing without the Atlantic connection. This is worrying about the neighbourhood first.
Anyway - looking at Global Britain in a competitive age:
Para 17 of the introduction
The UK is a European country with global interests, as an open economy and a maritime trading nation with a large diaspora. Our future prosperity will be enhanced by deepening our economic connections with dynamic parts of the world such as the Indo-Pacific, Africa and the Gulf, as well as trade with Europe. The precondition for Global Britain is the safety of our citizens at home and the security of the Euro-Atlantic region, where the bulk of the UK’s security focus will remain. As we look further afield, the future success of Global Britain requires us to understand the precise nature and extent of British strengths and the integrated offer we bring in other parts of the world. It is an approach that puts diplomacy first. As we engage more in the Indo-Pacific, for example, we will adapt to the regional balance of power and respect the interests of others – and seek to work with existing structures such as the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) and the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).
Para 31 iii
Strengthening security and defence at home and overseas: we will work with allies and partners to address challenges to our security in the physical world and online. NATO will remain the foundation of collective security in our home region of the Euro-Atlantic, where Russia remains the most acute threat to our security. We will also place greater emphasis on building our capacity and that of like-minded nations around the world in responding to a growing range of transnational state threats,1 radicalisation and terrorism, SOC and weapons proliferation.
Moving into the report main body:
Page 36 - There will be significant areas of geopolitical and geoeconomic continuity in the 2020s: the US will remain an economic, military and diplomatic superpower, and the UK’s most important strategic ally. The Euro-Atlantic region will remain critical to the UK’s security and prosperity; partnerships beyond the immediate European neighbourhood will also remain important. Russia will remain the most acute direct threat to the UK, and the US will continue to ask more from its allies in Europe in sharing the burden of collective security.
Overall, however, the distribution of global political and economic power – both within and between states, and between regions – will continue to change, with direct and indirect implications for UK interests. By 2030, it is likely that the world will have moved further towards multipolarity, with the geopolitical and economic centre of gravity moving eastward towards the Indo-Pacific.
Page 29 - Proliferation of CBRN weapons, advanced conventional weapons and novel military technologies will increase the risk and intensity of conflict and pose significant challenges to strategic stability. The advantages offered by high-tech capabilities may be eroded by affordable, easily-available, low-tech threats such as drones and improvised explosive devices. Opportunistic states will increasingly seek strategic advantage through exploiting and undermining democratic systems and open economies. Russia will be more active around the wider European neighbourhood, and Iran and North Korea will continue to destabilise their regions. The significant impact of China’s military modernisation and growing international assertiveness within the Indo-Pacific region and beyond will pose an increasing risk to UK interests.
Page 64 - China’s growing international stature is by far the most significant geopolitical factor in the world today, with major implications for British values and interests and for the structure and shape of the international order. The fact that China is an authoritarian state, with different values to ours, presents challenges for the UK and our allies. China will contribute more to global growth than any other country in the next decade with benefits to the global economy. China and the UK both benefit from bilateral trade and investment, but China also presents the biggest state-based threat to the UK’s economic security.
We will require a robust diplomatic framework for this relationship that allows us to manage disagreements, defend our values and preserve space for cooperation where our interests align. China is an increasingly important partner in tackling global challenges like pandemic preparedness, biodiversity and climate change. We will continue to pursue a positive economic relationship, including deeper trade links and more Chinese investment in the UK. At the same time, we will increase protection of our CNI, institutions and sensitive technology, and strengthen the resilience of our critical supply chains, so that we can engage with confidence. We will not hesitate to stand up for our values and our interests where they are threatened, or when China acts in breach of existing agreements. The UK has responded to China’s actions in Hong Kong by creating a new immigration route for British Nationals (Overseas) and their eligible family members and dependents, and to China’s human rights violations in Xinjiang through measures to ensure that British organisations are neither complicit in nor profiting from them.
Page 93 - [We will] Deploy more of our naval assets across the world to protect shipping lanes and uphold freedom of navigation. The Joint Maritime Security Centre will support this, strengthening operational maritime coordination across government. The Royal Navy’s Maritime Component Command in Bahrain will continue to ensure the flow of trade in the Gulf, including through support to part of the new International Maritime Security Construct.
BTW I have edited my post at the top of this page to add context to the mention of ASW and helicopters.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 28th Mar 2021 at 23:46.
The Atlantic Connection allows Europe to get defence on the cheap - etudiant is correct - the EU alone is a much bigger economy & has more people than Russia. They could easily match everything - they even have SSBN's
And you have the Brits & Norwegians as well...........
And you have the Brits & Norwegians as well...........
UK MoD announces that the Royal Netherlands Navy frigate HNLMS Evertsen will join the UK Carrier Strike Group for the duration of its inaugural deployment – from the North Atlantic, through to the Mediterranean, Indian Ocean and on to the Indo-Pacific.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...nt=immediately
airsound
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...nt=immediately
airsound
Launch & recovery systems being looked at for UAVs - but not CATOBAR for fighter weights.
UK considering carrier based drones for aerial refuelling (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)
Royal Navy looking at fixed-wing carrier based drone for AEW (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)
UK considering carrier based drones for aerial refuelling (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)
Royal Navy looking at fixed-wing carrier based drone for AEW (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)