Yeovilton or Culdrose
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Tim McC
I like your tenacity, but can you back up your suggestions with figures? Can you tell us, for example, what percentage of the facilities an RN squadron needs are free at CU, and whether there are the MQs, and spare space in the wardroom and other messes?
Having done so can you then tell us what the ROI is on moving all the VL flying assets to CU, and moving out the non-flying assets to CU or other vacant sites, and whether these too have all the spare facilities?
Cheers
I like your tenacity, but can you back up your suggestions with figures? Can you tell us, for example, what percentage of the facilities an RN squadron needs are free at CU, and whether there are the MQs, and spare space in the wardroom and other messes?
Having done so can you then tell us what the ROI is on moving all the VL flying assets to CU, and moving out the non-flying assets to CU or other vacant sites, and whether these too have all the spare facilities?
Cheers
I don't imagine for a minute that the navy would be relocated to St.Mawgan, even though it would probably be the most sensible arangement,
The other 50% are the Junglies, main job of moving troops and stores. They are very close to SPTA, Dartmoor and the troops they support.
Why would it be beneficial for them to move to St M.? As was said earlier try not to forget the rest of the infrastructure at VL. Some were forgotten..Dunker, Fighter controllers school, and not forgettng Navy Standards.
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airborne-artist, my answers simple - you just have to look at what the MoD has done over the past few years. You can make Yeovilton look as hectic as you like but I (and lots of other people I hasten to add) seriously doubt if it looks that convincing to the "bean-counters" in Whitehall. Okay, moving Army assets to VL might help, but it still doesn't address the long-term future of St.Mawgan or Culdrose for that matter. As I've already said, I'm sure Yeovilton wouldn't go without a big struggle (for all the reasons I mentioned) but that doesn't mean it's any less likely these days. Look at the saga with Scampton which closed, re-opened and now looks set to close again, albeit as an airfield. Then there's Lyneham which appeared doomed, but now it looks like Benson and Odiham might be chopped instead. And if they are (and Lyneham becomes this proposed "helicopter superbase" then would any Army units to go Yeovilton?
The future of quite a few airfields is (as various MoD people keep saying) far, far from clear, that's all I'm saying
Timex, you have a point there but I don't think reaching Dartmoor from SM would be much of a problem, and of course the Lynx was shifted away from Portland in the first place, so I doubt if a move even further from the area would be regarded as being too painful, especially when all other helicopter assets could happily be based in Cornwall (but as I say, I don't imagine this will ever happen - St.Mawgan is more likely to remain under C&M indefinitely, or ultimately take a couple of F-35 "navilised-Typhoon" units). In many respects, it would probably appear much easier to move Culdrose's assets to Yeovilton, but the potential economic impact is undoubtedly the reason why Culdrose inevitably looks fairly secure. Current airfield policy seems to be based purely on black and white asset-counting, potential economic impact, potential re-sale value, and (at least in the case of Leeming) how much fuss the local MP makes! I know it's crazy but I don't think it makes it any less true!
The future of quite a few airfields is (as various MoD people keep saying) far, far from clear, that's all I'm saying
Timex, you have a point there but I don't think reaching Dartmoor from SM would be much of a problem, and of course the Lynx was shifted away from Portland in the first place, so I doubt if a move even further from the area would be regarded as being too painful, especially when all other helicopter assets could happily be based in Cornwall (but as I say, I don't imagine this will ever happen - St.Mawgan is more likely to remain under C&M indefinitely, or ultimately take a couple of F-35 "navilised-Typhoon" units). In many respects, it would probably appear much easier to move Culdrose's assets to Yeovilton, but the potential economic impact is undoubtedly the reason why Culdrose inevitably looks fairly secure. Current airfield policy seems to be based purely on black and white asset-counting, potential economic impact, potential re-sale value, and (at least in the case of Leeming) how much fuss the local MP makes! I know it's crazy but I don't think it makes it any less true!
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 2nd Apr 2006 at 17:25.
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Weasel, unfortunately the subject of the thread usually goes for a meander, generally after a couple of posts. If you're lucky, a couple of ppruners may refer back to it. That's pprune!
Tim,
I fail to see the logic in your argument. Yes, one of the 3 bases that you mention will probably shut, so lets work out which one it should be. Out of the 3 bases, 2 are RN and one is RAF. Out of the 3 bases, 2 are arguably the busiest helicopter sites in Europe and one has very little activity at present. The RN need 2 bases from which to operate their helicopters.
I might write to their Lordships and suggest that we use Culdrose and Yeovilton as 2 RNAS and to base their FAA helicopters at these 2 sites. My suggestion will surely be the solution to all their problems at the moment. Who knows, I might even get a Herbott Lott for it. £2.50 book token. WH Smith's, watch out, Bruiser's Loose!!
Do you know how much it would cost to relocate Yeovilton to St Mawgan? I can't remember any figures, but when Portland shut (RIP) and HMS OSPREY was relocated to Yeovilton, the cost was astronomical. You also mention that St Mawgan cannot be disposed of economically. And Yeovilton can? I cannot see the MOD changing RAF St Mawgan into HMS SHY TALK just because F35 might be based there in the future.
Tim,
I fail to see the logic in your argument. Yes, one of the 3 bases that you mention will probably shut, so lets work out which one it should be. Out of the 3 bases, 2 are RN and one is RAF. Out of the 3 bases, 2 are arguably the busiest helicopter sites in Europe and one has very little activity at present. The RN need 2 bases from which to operate their helicopters.
I might write to their Lordships and suggest that we use Culdrose and Yeovilton as 2 RNAS and to base their FAA helicopters at these 2 sites. My suggestion will surely be the solution to all their problems at the moment. Who knows, I might even get a Herbott Lott for it. £2.50 book token. WH Smith's, watch out, Bruiser's Loose!!
Do you know how much it would cost to relocate Yeovilton to St Mawgan? I can't remember any figures, but when Portland shut (RIP) and HMS OSPREY was relocated to Yeovilton, the cost was astronomical. You also mention that St Mawgan cannot be disposed of economically. And Yeovilton can? I cannot see the MOD changing RAF St Mawgan into HMS SHY TALK just because F35 might be based there in the future.
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I can't understand why Tim McC is going on about St Mawgan - it is closing. Just as Lyneham is closing, unless someone can prove it is financially viable to keep it open. has anyone been to Lye recently? Last time I was there it was a tip.
Weasel, re your original post - you will have great fun at either Culdrose or Yeovilton. If you like surfing go to Culdrose, for all other reasons go to Yeovilton.
Weasel, re your original post - you will have great fun at either Culdrose or Yeovilton. If you like surfing go to Culdrose, for all other reasons go to Yeovilton.
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Culdrose is by far the best option.
The only thing Yeovs has going for it is that it has good roads heading away from it in all directions. Great for going weekenders at speed, but hardly a reason to live there. Culdrose, as has been pointed out is a nightmare to get away from, but that is not really an issue if you actually live there, rather than just visit for the sim etc.
Yeovilton is also an @rse place for grey lynx, not even coastal.
Cornwall is a great place to live, especially in the summer, with beautiful beaches, great surf, good weather plus nice towns to live in unlike Yeovil
Yeovils wardroom is a far higher standard, but very soulless to live in because everybody leaves at the weekend. (food is excellent at the moment, but pay as you starve is inbound, so it will be as sh1t as Culdrose soon)
Though I hate to admit it, Merlin is the future of RN rotary, and if I had my time again I would go for it.
Jungly, with the exception of the dwindling 847, is not as exciting as it is cracked up to be. Witness the number of junglys who have done 771 SAR tours and then opted to go bagging rather than go straight back to yeovs. Culdrose is looked on by yeovs inmates as this terrible purgatory where it is always red red, but in reality is rarely unflyable, especially since it is easy enough to get into Culdrose in red red.
Prestwick used to have the same problem as Culdrose. Nobody wanted to go there, but once you got someone there, they wouldn't leave.
Incidentally Tim Mclelland, what colour is the sky on your planet?
The only thing Yeovs has going for it is that it has good roads heading away from it in all directions. Great for going weekenders at speed, but hardly a reason to live there. Culdrose, as has been pointed out is a nightmare to get away from, but that is not really an issue if you actually live there, rather than just visit for the sim etc.
Yeovilton is also an @rse place for grey lynx, not even coastal.
Cornwall is a great place to live, especially in the summer, with beautiful beaches, great surf, good weather plus nice towns to live in unlike Yeovil
Yeovils wardroom is a far higher standard, but very soulless to live in because everybody leaves at the weekend. (food is excellent at the moment, but pay as you starve is inbound, so it will be as sh1t as Culdrose soon)
Though I hate to admit it, Merlin is the future of RN rotary, and if I had my time again I would go for it.
Jungly, with the exception of the dwindling 847, is not as exciting as it is cracked up to be. Witness the number of junglys who have done 771 SAR tours and then opted to go bagging rather than go straight back to yeovs. Culdrose is looked on by yeovs inmates as this terrible purgatory where it is always red red, but in reality is rarely unflyable, especially since it is easy enough to get into Culdrose in red red.
Prestwick used to have the same problem as Culdrose. Nobody wanted to go there, but once you got someone there, they wouldn't leave.
Incidentally Tim Mclelland, what colour is the sky on your planet?
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I'm not going to bore anyone by repeating what I've already said, suffice to say:-
Bismark that St.Mawgan as an airfield is not closing, or at least not yet. No decision has been made on it's future after the RAF Station closes (and placed under c&m), whether it be temporary or otherwise. Likewise, it looks like the MoD may have even turned-round it's decision to close Lyneham.
Bruiser, as I've already said, I'm not suggesting that logic comes into this at all, I'm commenting on what might actually happen (two different things). It's also pointless to keep referring to bases as being "RAF" or "RN" when as far as the MoD is concerned, they're simply "MoD". I've already explained why disposing of St.Mawgan isn't likely to be easy, and it seems fair to assume that selling-off Yeovilton would be a much more attractive prospect, not least because it's in a good position for housing redevelopment. And as for the cost of relocating assets? That's never been much of a consideration! This is the same Ministry that spent millions on Finningley for example, and sold it off a couple of years later.
The F-35 matter you mention is probably a reverse of the actual MoD position; it's not really about the possibility of the F-35 being based at St.Mawgan affecting Yeovilton's future, it's more likely to be a case of the MoD identifying St.Mawgan as a potential base in order to justify keeping it open (and therefore avoiding having to sell it). The fact that Yeovilton was taken off the list of potential F-35 bases (whilst St.Mawgan was conspicuously left on it) is probably significant. But I quite agree with you that we're never going to see a "RNAS St.Mawgan" (not that RAF and RN bases have never changed hands before of course) but given the circumstances, it might well have been the most sensible thing to do. No doubt the various interested parties will all defend their airfield but as I've already said, it must be doubtful if all three will remain in MoD hands and I certainly wouldn't want to put any money on which, at this stage!
Bismark that St.Mawgan as an airfield is not closing, or at least not yet. No decision has been made on it's future after the RAF Station closes (and placed under c&m), whether it be temporary or otherwise. Likewise, it looks like the MoD may have even turned-round it's decision to close Lyneham.
Bruiser, as I've already said, I'm not suggesting that logic comes into this at all, I'm commenting on what might actually happen (two different things). It's also pointless to keep referring to bases as being "RAF" or "RN" when as far as the MoD is concerned, they're simply "MoD". I've already explained why disposing of St.Mawgan isn't likely to be easy, and it seems fair to assume that selling-off Yeovilton would be a much more attractive prospect, not least because it's in a good position for housing redevelopment. And as for the cost of relocating assets? That's never been much of a consideration! This is the same Ministry that spent millions on Finningley for example, and sold it off a couple of years later.
The F-35 matter you mention is probably a reverse of the actual MoD position; it's not really about the possibility of the F-35 being based at St.Mawgan affecting Yeovilton's future, it's more likely to be a case of the MoD identifying St.Mawgan as a potential base in order to justify keeping it open (and therefore avoiding having to sell it). The fact that Yeovilton was taken off the list of potential F-35 bases (whilst St.Mawgan was conspicuously left on it) is probably significant. But I quite agree with you that we're never going to see a "RNAS St.Mawgan" (not that RAF and RN bases have never changed hands before of course) but given the circumstances, it might well have been the most sensible thing to do. No doubt the various interested parties will all defend their airfield but as I've already said, it must be doubtful if all three will remain in MoD hands and I certainly wouldn't want to put any money on which, at this stage!
Weasel, getting back to the relevant stuff - don't be put off by Widger's original arguments:
Firstly, not having a Motorway nearby is hardly a disadvantage. Just try the 30 mile Friday traffic jam called the M5 and you'll see what I mean.
Secondly, KFC. Yeovilton's nearest is at Bridgewater (22 miles) whereas Culdrose has one at 14 miles (Penzance). Admittedly, when it opens shortly I don't doubt Nesbit will have an interest.
So there you have it Kernow wins on all the relevant issues.
And by the way what is that McLelland chap on.
Firstly, not having a Motorway nearby is hardly a disadvantage. Just try the 30 mile Friday traffic jam called the M5 and you'll see what I mean.
Secondly, KFC. Yeovilton's nearest is at Bridgewater (22 miles) whereas Culdrose has one at 14 miles (Penzance). Admittedly, when it opens shortly I don't doubt Nesbit will have an interest.
So there you have it Kernow wins on all the relevant issues.
And by the way what is that McLelland chap on.
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Forgive me 6Z3, I keep forgetting what everyone told me about Pprune - that sensible conversation is always sacrificed in favour of "banter" ... I'll leave you people to it as there's patently not going to be as much as one word of sensible discussion, no matter how long this goes on. The irony is that the other sites used by the so-called "spotters" that are so frowned upon by the wannabe AVM's and Admirals on here, don't actually degenerate into this kind of nonsense. Oh well, such are the ironies of life I guess
Tim,
Journos (aviation and otherwise) have been tolerated (often gently teased, occasionally shouted at and sometimes loathed) on PPRuNe for years. But it's all got a bit too cosy thanks to the sensible, friendly, respectful contributions by folk like Sprucey and LO.
[sarcasm]I applaud your efforts to ensure that attitudes to our profession harden into absolute contempt.
Though this is a forum for the professionals who actually do the job that many of us once wanted to do, why should we 'know our place'. Why should we show any humility? Why should we wind our necks in? [/sarcasm] When we can pi$$ people off by banging on and on with our pet peeves...... (Hmmm. Guilty as charged)
And while I hate to rain on anyone's parade, wasn't VL's usable runway length rather greater in F-4 and V-Bomber days? And won't VL be pretty full when it takes over all the maintenance activity from Lee on Solent .....?
Journos (aviation and otherwise) have been tolerated (often gently teased, occasionally shouted at and sometimes loathed) on PPRuNe for years. But it's all got a bit too cosy thanks to the sensible, friendly, respectful contributions by folk like Sprucey and LO.
[sarcasm]I applaud your efforts to ensure that attitudes to our profession harden into absolute contempt.
Though this is a forum for the professionals who actually do the job that many of us once wanted to do, why should we 'know our place'. Why should we show any humility? Why should we wind our necks in? [/sarcasm] When we can pi$$ people off by banging on and on with our pet peeves...... (Hmmm. Guilty as charged)
And while I hate to rain on anyone's parade, wasn't VL's usable runway length rather greater in F-4 and V-Bomber days? And won't VL be pretty full when it takes over all the maintenance activity from Lee on Solent .....?
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Indeed Jacko, but quite a few of us lowly civvies use Pprune on the assumption that users want to either exchange information or discuss ideas or views, not listen to sniping from people who don't have anything intelligent to say. "Jolly banter" might be fine, but if you look at some of these postings, you can see that some of them are plainly nothing more than amateur attempts at mischief-making.The sad thing is that this childish "I'm in the RAF/Navy Therefore I'm Special" attitude pursued by a few (but not all of course) Pprune users is becoming well-known outside of this forum, and one wonders what the site Admisitrators must make of it?
Likewise, although you imply that my comments merely serve to reinforce contempt, I should point-out that at least as far as I'm concerned, my extensive working contact with both RAF and FAA personnel has always been positive, friendly and very helpful, so please don't tar everybody with the same brush as some of the idiots we have to endure (or ignore!) on here, as that would be a tad unfair.
Oh, and as for Yeovilton's runway, no, it wasn't any longer back then, indeed the only major alteration to Yeovilton's layout for many years has been the creation of the apron where the V-bomber ORP used to be. The MoD's notion that the runway is somehow "too short" for the F-35 is of course, entirely bogus!
Likewise, although you imply that my comments merely serve to reinforce contempt, I should point-out that at least as far as I'm concerned, my extensive working contact with both RAF and FAA personnel has always been positive, friendly and very helpful, so please don't tar everybody with the same brush as some of the idiots we have to endure (or ignore!) on here, as that would be a tad unfair.
Oh, and as for Yeovilton's runway, no, it wasn't any longer back then, indeed the only major alteration to Yeovilton's layout for many years has been the creation of the apron where the V-bomber ORP used to be. The MoD's notion that the runway is somehow "too short" for the F-35 is of course, entirely bogus!
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 3rd Apr 2006 at 01:46.
....and of course St Mawgan's nearest KFC is 37 miles....Bad news also for you Mr McSpock as its at least 54 Million KM from Phobos, with not a motorway in sight. But you could ask Nesbit to build one there..
..and do us all a favour.
..and do us all a favour.
While many here enjoy a good spat between filthy journos, it's not my intention to get into one.
Firstly the "I'm in the RAF/Navy Therefore I'm Special" attitude is, in general, entirely justified. If you and I were good enough are you seriously suggesting that we'd be content merely writing about it? Moreover, this is their sandpit, and we're fortunate that it isn't a closed forum like some of those for individual airline companies personnel.
Suffice it to say that if you are who I think you might be, I would gently, and with the utmost respect, suggest that your "extensive working contact with both RAF and FAA personnel has always been positive, friendly and very helpful," because you are, in person, charming, friendly, and personable, not confrontational, not arrogant, not superior, whereas here in your internet persona, you are often 'sand in the vaseline'.
Don't do as I do, do as I say, and know when to "wind your neck in", if not fully, then by a mil or two.
And I think your wrong about runway length.....
Firstly the "I'm in the RAF/Navy Therefore I'm Special" attitude is, in general, entirely justified. If you and I were good enough are you seriously suggesting that we'd be content merely writing about it? Moreover, this is their sandpit, and we're fortunate that it isn't a closed forum like some of those for individual airline companies personnel.
Suffice it to say that if you are who I think you might be, I would gently, and with the utmost respect, suggest that your "extensive working contact with both RAF and FAA personnel has always been positive, friendly and very helpful," because you are, in person, charming, friendly, and personable, not confrontational, not arrogant, not superior, whereas here in your internet persona, you are often 'sand in the vaseline'.
Don't do as I do, do as I say, and know when to "wind your neck in", if not fully, then by a mil or two.
And I think your wrong about runway length.....
Tim
While not wishing to join the 'bun fight' you seem to be having with the RN, I would take issue with one of your comments:- 'And as for the cost of relocating assets? That's never been much of a consideration!'
My 'unofficial' understanding is that the reason that RAF Kinloss is staying open, for a whole 12 aircraft, rather than move maritime Nimrods to Lincolnshire and so co-locate ISTAR assets, is that the cost of relocation, closing Kinloss, beefing up Lincolnshire assets (housing, infrastructure, etc) is too expensive!! I believe a move was the preferred option of RAF senior neddies!!
Some rationalisation of 'MoD' helicopter basing, Culdrose, Yeovilton, Middle Wallop, Benson, Odiham seems inevtiable from a bean counters point of view - but as to what will go and what will stay...
While not wishing to join the 'bun fight' you seem to be having with the RN, I would take issue with one of your comments:- 'And as for the cost of relocating assets? That's never been much of a consideration!'
My 'unofficial' understanding is that the reason that RAF Kinloss is staying open, for a whole 12 aircraft, rather than move maritime Nimrods to Lincolnshire and so co-locate ISTAR assets, is that the cost of relocation, closing Kinloss, beefing up Lincolnshire assets (housing, infrastructure, etc) is too expensive!! I believe a move was the preferred option of RAF senior neddies!!
Some rationalisation of 'MoD' helicopter basing, Culdrose, Yeovilton, Middle Wallop, Benson, Odiham seems inevtiable from a bean counters point of view - but as to what will go and what will stay...
Ladies and Gents, I apologise for the manner of my previous posts but, this Tim chap is really getting on my goat with such mis-informed drivel. I doubt he has ever been to either Culdrose or Yeovilton outside of an airshow because, if he had, he would not be talking such utter cr@p. Remember Tim, this was first and foremost a thread about KFC. You decided to bring your 1970's, light blue centric politics into it. What else can you expect but an assault when you start spouting off about stations, both of which I have served at. It is starting to get annoying that any thread about the RAF on Pprune never appears to receive the venemous rhetoric that the RN does. Trident, Sea Jet, CVS, CVF and now Culdrose and Yeovilton are all attracting attention from the likes of those with your attitude. Don't be surprised when some of us feel the need to defend ourselves. (and yes Southside/Totalwar/Vecvec is a knob!)
I note that you are getting similar abuse on the Sea Jet thread...maybe there is a trend there!
I note that you are getting similar abuse on the Sea Jet thread...maybe there is a trend there!
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Jacko, seen as you're the only guy that bothered to add anything that actually contributed to our discussion, I've taken the liberty of posting-up a recent image of Yeovilton which will hopefully satisfy you that I'm not wrong about the runway. As you can see, it remains unchanged, the only obvious alterations being the new apron in the top-left corner (built on the V-bomber dispersal) and the Ski Ramp built on part of the ORP.
And as for your comments about service personnel, I did say that the kind of attitude I referred-to does only apply to a few individuals on Pprune - that was rather my point, that their childish attitude simply gives everyone else a bad name.
Airborne - I'm not digging any holes at all - naturally I'm not even interested in the comments made by people who can't even conduct an adult conversation. As for digging-out numbers to throw-about, I'm sure you could find them for yourself if you're really that keen to get them (those lowly spotters are very good at compilng lists!), although I'm not quite sure what the allocations to each individual units would serve to illustrate?
Widger, you're right about the Sea Jet thread, that's why I ignore it now. As ever, sensible discussion was replaced by childish sniping so I stopped bothering to read it. Unfortunately, this is what quite a few Pprune users do after a while!
Biggus - your understanding of the Kinloss saga is different to the one I heard then, as I was told that moving the Nimrods to Waddington was indeed a much more practical idea, but it was indeed some particular RAF "neddies" (as you call them) that pushed for Kinloss to stay open. It later transpired that the main advocate with most influence was a former Nimrod man who lives there...go figure.
And as for your comments about service personnel, I did say that the kind of attitude I referred-to does only apply to a few individuals on Pprune - that was rather my point, that their childish attitude simply gives everyone else a bad name.
Airborne - I'm not digging any holes at all - naturally I'm not even interested in the comments made by people who can't even conduct an adult conversation. As for digging-out numbers to throw-about, I'm sure you could find them for yourself if you're really that keen to get them (those lowly spotters are very good at compilng lists!), although I'm not quite sure what the allocations to each individual units would serve to illustrate?
Widger, you're right about the Sea Jet thread, that's why I ignore it now. As ever, sensible discussion was replaced by childish sniping so I stopped bothering to read it. Unfortunately, this is what quite a few Pprune users do after a while!
Biggus - your understanding of the Kinloss saga is different to the one I heard then, as I was told that moving the Nimrods to Waddington was indeed a much more practical idea, but it was indeed some particular RAF "neddies" (as you call them) that pushed for Kinloss to stay open. It later transpired that the main advocate with most influence was a former Nimrod man who lives there...go figure.