SEA HARRIERS, is it really all over?
Gentleman Aviator
Thoughts and mathematics......
"SHAR did a great job in the Falklands (1982)"
"SHAR shouldn't be scrapped (2006)"
2006 - 1982 = 24 years
1940 + 24 years = 1964
Don't recall much talk of Spitfires, Hurricanes, Big Wings etc etc in 1964.
Of course I know that SHAR 2006 is not the same beast as SHAR 1982 .... but life and defence all move on...... apart from shortage of cash, UK Defence has for ages suffered from "fighting the last war" syndrome ...
... and saying "We couldn't do the Falklands in 2006" is about as helpful as saying "We couldn't have done the B of B in 1964", notwithstanding the truth of both statements.
SHAR was a very good jet - it's gone - it ain't coming back - get over it and look to the future.
[Health warning for the ironically challenged: much of the above is tongue-in-cheek
]
"SHAR did a great job in the Falklands (1982)"
"SHAR shouldn't be scrapped (2006)"
2006 - 1982 = 24 years
1940 + 24 years = 1964
Don't recall much talk of Spitfires, Hurricanes, Big Wings etc etc in 1964.
Of course I know that SHAR 2006 is not the same beast as SHAR 1982 .... but life and defence all move on...... apart from shortage of cash, UK Defence has for ages suffered from "fighting the last war" syndrome ...
... and saying "We couldn't do the Falklands in 2006" is about as helpful as saying "We couldn't have done the B of B in 1964", notwithstanding the truth of both statements.
SHAR was a very good jet - it's gone - it ain't coming back - get over it and look to the future.
[Health warning for the ironically challenged: much of the above is tongue-in-cheek
]
Suspicion breeds confidence
teeteringhead
But in 1964, the Spit and the Hurricane had been replaced by other types. Such as the Javelin, the Venom and Meteor. Hence the overall capability was maintained. In the case of the Shar, well you can see where I'm leading to...
The last time we operated a carrier in wartime without any fighters embarked was in 1942. HMS Hermes and it was sunk by Japanese air power.
But in 1964, the Spit and the Hurricane had been replaced by other types. Such as the Javelin, the Venom and Meteor. Hence the overall capability was maintained. In the case of the Shar, well you can see where I'm leading to...
The last time we operated a carrier in wartime without any fighters embarked was in 1942. HMS Hermes and it was sunk by Japanese air power.
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Navaleye
So that would mean that any other (UK or allied) carries sunk by enemy air power had fighters embarked - why didn't they work?
The last time we operated a carrier in wartime without any fighters embarked was in 1942. HMS Hermes and it was sunk by Japanese air power.
Is it just me or did 801 go out with a bit of a wimper? I saw them return from the Portsmouth flypast to a very sedate run and break. I did enjoy the almost unison shut down for that last time. Never to hear again that unique Pegasus wind down again
. I didn't see them leave the next day but I'm told that their arrival at Shawbury didn't live up to expectations.
Perhaps I'm living back in the past when these things seemed a bit more exciting.
. I didn't see them leave the next day but I'm told that their arrival at Shawbury didn't live up to expectations.Perhaps I'm living back in the past when these things seemed a bit more exciting.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Climebear,
Very simple,
Fighters do not guarantee your survival, but your chances of keeping your feet dry are much better with them than without. Every other navy in the world accepts that doctrine. Except the MoD.
Very simple,
Fighters do not guarantee your survival, but your chances of keeping your feet dry are much better with them than without. Every other navy in the world accepts that doctrine. Except the MoD.
Suspicion breeds confidence
25th May operated 9 X A4Q Skyhawks. These could operate in an air defence role with 2 X 20mm and 2 X AIM9s. In a bomber role, they typically carried 4 X Mk82 Snakeyes plus cannon. The Navy pilots trained in both roles, unlike their airforce counterparts. It was their intention to replace the Skyhawks with Super Etendards which are far more effective in both roles, however, it was found that the old carrier was unable to operate them with any safety margin.
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Originally Posted by modtinbasher
And, whatever happened to Whizzer of wilson fame, he of the 'I'll try to get it on the piano keys at Yeovilton if it takes me 3 attempts'?
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Some interesting posts from Navaleye...
Err...that'll be apart from Op TELIC in 2003!!! Likewise the Yanks have used CVNs without AD during both Haiti and Afghanistan.
Err...apart from the Dutch, Australian, Canadian, German and the many others who have no carrier capability at all. Likewise, the Brazilian flat top, Sao Paulo (formerly the Foch iirc, I believe that Minas Geriais (sp?) is now decommissioned) has no AD. Likewise the French operated Clem/Foch without AD for a while after the retirement of the F-8. Likewise the Thai carrier (Chakri something?).
So, if these A-4s were suitable as a basic AD asset for the Argies, are you suggesting then that GR9 with AIM-9 and ASaC support (and I strongly suspect that the GR9 fleet will be upgraded with ASRAAM and JTIDS partly through the costsavings of the FA2) are sufficient? RAF GR9 guys do a fair bit of ACT and I assume that JFH will ensure that their FAA colleagues will do likewise.
Navaleye, I concede that many of the above nations have a different world profile than HMF. However, I contend that the realities of far higher funding priorities, and the capabilities of GR9 and ASaC is a realistic compromise.
Regards,
MM
The last time we operated a carrier in wartime without any fighters embarked was in 1942. HMS Hermes and it was sunk by Japanese air power.
Fighters do not guarantee your survival, but your chances of keeping your feet dry are much better with them than without. Every other navy in the world accepts that doctrine.
25th May operated 9 X A4Q Skyhawks. These could operate in an air defence role with 2 X 20mm and 2 X AIM9s. In a bomber role, they typically carried 4 X Mk82 Snakeyes plus cannon. The Navy pilots trained in both roles, unlike their airforce counterparts.
Navaleye, I concede that many of the above nations have a different world profile than HMF. However, I contend that the realities of far higher funding priorities, and the capabilities of GR9 and ASaC is a realistic compromise.
Regards,
MM
Suspicion breeds confidence
MM,
In Telic our CVS were acting as LPH.
25th May's A4Qs were controlled by her Tracker aircraft. A capability which we lacked 25 years ago.
Clemenceau and Foch both operated SuE's after the F8 was retired in both the air to air and air to ground roles.
Minas Gerais latterly operated ex USM A4s in a dual role configuration, those aircraft now operate from Sao Paulo
I don't think the Chakri Neurabet has ever left port so I won't be draw on that one.
In Telic our CVS were acting as LPH.
25th May's A4Qs were controlled by her Tracker aircraft. A capability which we lacked 25 years ago.
Clemenceau and Foch both operated SuE's after the F8 was retired in both the air to air and air to ground roles.
Minas Gerais latterly operated ex USM A4s in a dual role configuration, those aircraft now operate from Sao Paulo
I don't think the Chakri Neurabet has ever left port so I won't be draw on that one.
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Originally Posted by Tourist
Very much out with a whimper.
As ordered by the commodore.
Personally I would have like to see a 5ship 500kt inverted pass, but all entertainment was banned.
As ordered by the commodore.
Personally I would have like to see a 5ship 500kt inverted pass, but all entertainment was banned.
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Originally Posted by Widger
Modtinbasher,The Blue Fox was the radar in the FRS1. FA2 had the much much better Blue Vixen. No it was not money wasted as the technology has found it's way into a jet currently flying near Lincolshire!
Just a pity it didn't find its way into Harrier II+(UK) FGR9/9A
So ends a great aircraft and a piece of avation history.(in UK service)
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Interesting banter. During the many years I spent in HMS Grey Funnels I sort of found it comforting to knew there was a few SHARs up top. Quick to launch in virtually any weather and (arguably) piloted by some of the best fighter pilots in the world bar none. Also we had some of the best fighter controllers in the world to assist them, either in the ops room or through the observers in the "Bags" (AEW S/kings to the uninitiated). Having removed the ships own Medium range defence system the ship needs to rely on air defence frigates and with our ever depleting stocks of ships (can you believe they are selling type 23s already) its a wonder that there will be enough to go around especially if any conflict involves the efforts of all our big ships at once. I only hope that nothing kicks off until we have sufficient Type 45s or the JSF comes on line. Because we now have a Mud Mover embarked will there be a risk of loosing the previously mentioned skills of the fighter controllers (air & ship borne) so that when JSF finally arrives we don't have the skills to direct them.
With the SHAR gone I am just glad I don't have to serve at sea anymore. The early messages who quoted the list of planes shot down by the mighty SHAR during the 1982 debackle failed to note the biggest - Sharky's C130.
Gone but not forgotten. Nil illigitimum carborundum
bj
With the SHAR gone I am just glad I don't have to serve at sea anymore. The early messages who quoted the list of planes shot down by the mighty SHAR during the 1982 debackle failed to note the biggest - Sharky's C130.
Gone but not forgotten. Nil illigitimum carborundum
bj
Modtinbasher
Blue Fox was the dogs bolix in terms of up to date, state of the art, radar design. Like other RN radars, development had to be stopped when the Falklands war broke out, so what entered service did not quite meet the spec. If memory serves, B Models (pre-production models) were fitted to the first squadron. They were so good, and reliability so far in excess of requirement, that it took over 10 years for them to find their way back to the factory for mid life update. That is unheard of.
That update and a previous modification programme (sorry, both secret) were in effect technology demonstrators for Blue Vixen, ECR90/Euroradar for Typhoon and Merlin's Blue Kestrel.
True story. RAF were looking for a replacement for the Bucc/radar, to be fitted to another FJ. Handed over best spec they could think of. "How much and how long to deliver a radar to this spec?" Chief Designer - Ask RN if you can have Blue Fox, they're ditching it". RAF - "OK". (Pause). "But if Blue Fox meets the best spec we can think of, and RN are ditching it, what the **** are RN getting?". CD - "Blue Vixen". (To a higher spec than RN requested).
Blue Fox was the dogs bolix in terms of up to date, state of the art, radar design. Like other RN radars, development had to be stopped when the Falklands war broke out, so what entered service did not quite meet the spec. If memory serves, B Models (pre-production models) were fitted to the first squadron. They were so good, and reliability so far in excess of requirement, that it took over 10 years for them to find their way back to the factory for mid life update. That is unheard of.
That update and a previous modification programme (sorry, both secret) were in effect technology demonstrators for Blue Vixen, ECR90/Euroradar for Typhoon and Merlin's Blue Kestrel.
True story. RAF were looking for a replacement for the Bucc/radar, to be fitted to another FJ. Handed over best spec they could think of. "How much and how long to deliver a radar to this spec?" Chief Designer - Ask RN if you can have Blue Fox, they're ditching it". RAF - "OK". (Pause). "But if Blue Fox meets the best spec we can think of, and RN are ditching it, what the **** are RN getting?". CD - "Blue Vixen". (To a higher spec than RN requested).
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Navaleye,
I don't quite follow your train of thought here old chap.
You discussed operating a carrier in wartime, ie the type of ship, not its role. Ergo, CVS was employed in TELIC as an LPH without fighters!
Likewise, what point are you trying to make ref the Argie capability in 82. We're talking about now, today. If Sue (albeit with Agave/Anemone radar)/Magic and Minas Gerais' A-4 (I don't think they're ex USMC A-4M incidentally. I believe that they're ex Kuwaiti A-4KU. You may be thinking of the Argentine AF A-4AR Fightinghawks are the upgraded ex USMC jets) with AIM-9L(?) are adequate AD assets, why do are you so quick to dismiss the GR9/AIM-9L, especially with ASaC support? Whether the Argies had S-2 control 24 years ago is irrelevant to todays argument.
Regards,
MM
I don't quite follow your train of thought here old chap.
You discussed operating a carrier in wartime, ie the type of ship, not its role. Ergo, CVS was employed in TELIC as an LPH without fighters!
Likewise, what point are you trying to make ref the Argie capability in 82. We're talking about now, today. If Sue (albeit with Agave/Anemone radar)/Magic and Minas Gerais' A-4 (I don't think they're ex USMC A-4M incidentally. I believe that they're ex Kuwaiti A-4KU. You may be thinking of the Argentine AF A-4AR Fightinghawks are the upgraded ex USMC jets) with AIM-9L(?) are adequate AD assets, why do are you so quick to dismiss the GR9/AIM-9L, especially with ASaC support? Whether the Argies had S-2 control 24 years ago is irrelevant to todays argument.
Regards,
MM
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Southside
Simple
He personally resisted his lads' temptations to do something spectacular on their 'final fling', which may have jeapoardised his next promotion
Supervision, Authorisation, and don't crash during my tour spring to mind!
Simple
He personally resisted his lads' temptations to do something spectacular on their 'final fling', which may have jeapoardised his next promotion
Supervision, Authorisation, and don't crash during my tour spring to mind!