Cost of an ND?
care.
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We had our fuel tanks 'aerated' at R850 by a door slider and his trusty gimpy a few years back. Luckily he didn't us wing mongs working on the pan/operating the pump next to the tanks. Even more lucky was the fact 3 of the rounds which hit the tanks (which were tracer) didn't ignite. Tank 4 would have made a hell of a bang, what with it being empty but full of vapour awaiting a receipt.
Apparently he got away with a slap on the wrist because the weapon was at fault, although I'm not sure how placing a belt of 7.62mm into the weapon then attempting to fire off the action is a fault of the weapon. I always believed thats how gimpies worked!!
Apparently he got away with a slap on the wrist because the weapon was at fault, although I'm not sure how placing a belt of 7.62mm into the weapon then attempting to fire off the action is a fault of the weapon. I always believed thats how gimpies worked!!
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If an aircraft was designed with the same gotchas as a 9mm pistol, would any of us accept it?
NDs are by aviation standards errors. They are punished as misbehaviour, but nobody does it deliberately. Apply aviation design standards to the weapon and the procedures, then sue, grabbitt and runne!
Sven
NDs are by aviation standards errors. They are punished as misbehaviour, but nobody does it deliberately. Apply aviation design standards to the weapon and the procedures, then sue, grabbitt and runne!
Sven
I wonder what the Harrier got for shooting the **** out of the H53 on the ramp in Yuma during the summer? Harrier taxiied out, returned prior to dept with a problem. In the meanwhile some rounds cooked off, hitting the helo.
Or at least that's the way the story goes.
Or at least that's the way the story goes.
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I know where ABIW is coming from. In N Ireland in the eighties, there was a run of NDs, mostly in the clearing pit. The crews were doing 14 hour shifts with regular 8hrs+ flying in difficult conditions. A very senior officer, very senior, declared that he had the answer to the problem. Never pull the trigger after the first time when you take the weapon out of the armoury. When you return it, just cock and hook and hand it over, the armourer will look inside it anyway. This valuable, illegal advice worked for me for 18 months.
Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that if you fire a round into the pit, you should get a reduced fine as you have at least done some of the safety drill.
Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that if you fire a round into the pit, you should get a reduced fine as you have at least done some of the safety drill.
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If an aircraft was designed with the same gotchas as a 9mm pistol, would any of us accept it?
[QUOTE=The Helpful Stacker]We had our fuel tanks 'aerated' at R850 by a door slider and his trusty gimpy a few years back.
Remember that one VERY well! Said door gunner was a top bloke actually, took the slight ribbing he received from all ranks with good spirit. For weeks he couldn't come into the bar without everyone diving for cover.....
Mind you, heard he was involved in an accident at Ballykelly later on. Hope you're doing OK D-----.
Jobza
Remember that one VERY well! Said door gunner was a top bloke actually, took the slight ribbing he received from all ranks with good spirit. For weeks he couldn't come into the bar without everyone diving for cover.....
Mind you, heard he was involved in an accident at Ballykelly later on. Hope you're doing OK D-----.
Jobza
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Back to our unfortunate RNZN CAPT .....
An RNZN CAPT would be a little older than I am, so like many here on this forum, he'd have learnt service shooting on the good old L1A1. When we introduced the Steyr we had a number of what you call 'NDs' ... the safety catch is a sh1tty thing that pokes through the weapon - out one side, in the other. Very easy to inadvertently push it from safe to fire.
A 1 RAR digger was killed in Somalia as a result of a Steyr UD due to the safety catch being off and him grabbing the 'gat' whilst stumbling or unsteady on his feet (IIRC). The trigger is not protected by a small trigger guard à la M-16 / L1A1 / G3 / L85 etc ... and it's a big plastic sliding plug type thing. Easy to touch when you don't mean to.
Is it likely that the poor bugger has only used the Steyr a handful of times? Gotten himself into trouble due to old habits and unfamiliarity?
A 1 RAR digger was killed in Somalia as a result of a Steyr UD due to the safety catch being off and him grabbing the 'gat' whilst stumbling or unsteady on his feet (IIRC). The trigger is not protected by a small trigger guard à la M-16 / L1A1 / G3 / L85 etc ... and it's a big plastic sliding plug type thing. Easy to touch when you don't mean to.
Is it likely that the poor bugger has only used the Steyr a handful of times? Gotten himself into trouble due to old habits and unfamiliarity?
Last edited by Like This - Do That; 31st Mar 2006 at 05:05.
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Rapier nd
Techie mate in FI 1982. Called to a fault of "system not firing" (when connected to the test set). By the time he arrived the rocks had disconnected the test set and reconnected the missiles. He jumped in the seat pressed the tit and.. Fault Cleared.
Although the missile was circa £22K it was classed as an ND and he got the standard £50 fine.
There was a queue of guys with there chequebooks out but the system of handing over faults was changed to prevent a reoccurence.
There was a similar event in GW1 but that was by a rock, I don't know his fine but it would have been the standard for the time.
So in aprox 30 years and in 2 wars we fired 2 missiles, both by accident.
Although the missile was circa £22K it was classed as an ND and he got the standard £50 fine.
There was a queue of guys with there chequebooks out but the system of handing over faults was changed to prevent a reoccurence.
There was a similar event in GW1 but that was by a rock, I don't know his fine but it would have been the standard for the time.
So in aprox 30 years and in 2 wars we fired 2 missiles, both by accident.
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Talk about people getting of light following Nd's well I know of at least 1 apache instructor that had such an incident and didn't even get told off, in fact they think its funny! I understand that during simulation no action is taken if an ND occurs with either a weapon or the laser; is this not bad drills and potentially breeding contempt for safety and proficiency.?
It must be an AAC thing, as 1 officer in NI dropped his rifle off of a Gazelle (it was left hanging on the stores boom and fell about 100ft), then he tried to had in the bent rifle with the lame excuse that it was like that when he signed it out; yes he got away with it. He is now an OC of a Lynx Sqn.
And only recently on Apache fired its barrel down range, I'm sure that the Ac captain is meant to check that it is secure during the pre-flight inspections? if not an amendment required to the FRCs I fear!
Oh well at least we haven't fired any rockets out side of range arcs yet!!
PP
It must be an AAC thing, as 1 officer in NI dropped his rifle off of a Gazelle (it was left hanging on the stores boom and fell about 100ft), then he tried to had in the bent rifle with the lame excuse that it was like that when he signed it out; yes he got away with it. He is now an OC of a Lynx Sqn.
And only recently on Apache fired its barrel down range, I'm sure that the Ac captain is meant to check that it is secure during the pre-flight inspections? if not an amendment required to the FRCs I fear!
Oh well at least we haven't fired any rockets out side of range arcs yet!!
PP
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As a gd cdr of some experience, several years ago a young lad 'put one up the spout' as he was unloading - it was 4 o clock in the morning and his second week on guard.
I have always followed my own unload drill
'take off your magazine and give it to me' (check top round)
'for inspection port arms'
the simpler we keep the drills the safer they are
I have always followed my own unload drill
'take off your magazine and give it to me' (check top round)
'for inspection port arms'
the simpler we keep the drills the safer they are
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I have heard a rumour that there was an aircrew type (okay officer pilot) in NI who had an ND. He was sitting at his desk talking on the phone and idly playing with his pistol at the same time. (He may well have been preparing it for cleaning.) While talking to matey on the other end there was a loud explosion as the weapon discharged and blew the body of the phone away. Miraculously, the phone continued to operate with matey asking what had happened. I think the reply was something like, "Well bugger me, I've just shot my phone!" The rub was that with the phone cradle in bits he couldn't hang up the call.
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Originally Posted by jayteeto
my personal opinion is that if you fire a round into the pit, you should get a reduced fine as you have at least done some of the safety drill.
If the result of the ND is holes in objects that previously were intact, then a larger fine will be forthcoming.
If the result of the ND endangers life, then fines may not be the limit of the punishment.
So in effect, you DO get a reduced fine for shooting up the unloading bay.
