Nav wanting out?Advice please?
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Nav wanting out?Advice please?
Alright gang,
Thought I'd check this out to see if anyone has been in the same boat as me and can offer some advice?
I'm currently a Navigator in the RAF and am thinking about leaving after my return of service which is due soon and training to become a pilot, looking towards the airlines for future employment.
The only reason I'm like this is because of the state the RAF has run itself into. Morale is at an all time low, detachments are virtually impossible, and the good old days of seeing the benefits of being in the forces have long since gone. I have seen other forums on the pro's and con's of being in the RAF and I can see both sides but I am very much on the negative side like the majority and the only thing that is keeping me in right now in the salary and nothing else. I don't feel any kind of commitment as you simply don't get looked after anymore. Lt Col Tim Collins as a good example.
Have any ex Air Force Navs tried to go along this route and if successful, how would you advise me going about my business over the next year or so?
Thought I'd check this out to see if anyone has been in the same boat as me and can offer some advice?
I'm currently a Navigator in the RAF and am thinking about leaving after my return of service which is due soon and training to become a pilot, looking towards the airlines for future employment.
The only reason I'm like this is because of the state the RAF has run itself into. Morale is at an all time low, detachments are virtually impossible, and the good old days of seeing the benefits of being in the forces have long since gone. I have seen other forums on the pro's and con's of being in the RAF and I can see both sides but I am very much on the negative side like the majority and the only thing that is keeping me in right now in the salary and nothing else. I don't feel any kind of commitment as you simply don't get looked after anymore. Lt Col Tim Collins as a good example.
Have any ex Air Force Navs tried to go along this route and if successful, how would you advise me going about my business over the next year or so?
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will a pilot do?
Ground
Topography: Broken and uneven, steeply uphill with brown grass on both sides of the fence.
Population: Divided by two warring tribes:
The Old Farts through whose self-centred desires the entire population is stifled for want of unity, proper jobs are scarce, negotiated progress is impossible and the just cause of the Young Turks is suppressed that a few may reap advantage and to hell with the rest.
The Young Turks through whose self-centred desires the entire population is stifled for want of unity, proper jobs are scarce, negotiated progress is impossible and the just cause of the Old Farts is suppressed that a few may reap advantage and to hell with the rest.
Political Affiliations: A three-party state:
The “Pick It” party. Motto “Picket We do”. Primarily but not exclusively Old Farts.
The “Scab” party. Motto “Picket We don’t”. Primarily but not exclusively Young Turks.
The Popular Front. Motto “We’re just LoCo”.
Industry: None.
Sports: Going to the dogs.
Religion/Ethnicity: I’m all right Jacks 20%; Arslikhani 60%; Magratheans10%; Coo what am I like 10%
Aggroculture: Are you looking at me mate?
Situation
Looking for one.
Mission
To transfer those skills that can be transferred and to exercise complete closure on those that can’t with a view to securing as much health, wealth and happiness if that’s not too much to ask.
Execution
You will suffer this if you utter “When I was in….”
Concurrent activity. Apply to more than one outfit. Maintain your old hours. If you are not working 7 hours a day productively towards securing your next job you won’t get one.
Acquire 500hrs minimum PIC on jets; or 250hrs ditto with 1500hrs FO on props; ex-rotary wing 250hrs ditto and 500hrs RW – no, not because you’re brilliant but because you are ugly and you smell. Please go away.
Mug up on industrial psychology. Learn to fake sincerity. Practise the Duchenne smile.
Pass the aptitude skills, logical reasoning, psychometric tests. Pass the simulator assessment. Pass the one-hour interview board.
Administration
Get your hands legally on 60-70k at a rate you can afford to pay back. When you apply for a job make sure that you have
Birth certificate – don’t be over 49 at all, at all, at all; 42 at all, at all; 36 at all.
Education certificates
Degree(s) [if any]
(Your commissioning scroll) – they may ask. Then again they may not give 2...
Attestations to flying brevet(s)
Driver’s Licence unsullied
Current passport with unrestricted access
(Where your medical records are)
(Where your dental records are) – eg Qantas, you’d be surprised why!
Class 1 medical
CPL
ATPL or the pass slips for the exams
Proof of multi-engine IFR
Endorsements for NDB, VOR, ILS, LLZ etc
Last 3 pages of log book
All the things I’ve forgotten but you took the time and effort to research.
Command & Signals
Command. It’s your call. But mice are smart these days and it is the first mouse that gets the cheese. Like all vocations “Why you” and “Why now” and “Give me an example…” are the questions that will have to be answered such that they call you within 3 weeks. Say to yourself “All I have done so far counts for diddly squat in the eyes of these morons”. Practice not saying this aloud. Do not say “The RAF is a pile of poo these days especially those w@nkers in Gloucester so I thought I’d give you lot the chance and you’ll be glad to have me”. The gentleman sat to the right whose name you did not quite catch was AoC PTC Gloucester until last Thursday.
Signals. Partners looking daggers are a signal that your relationship may not survive. Letters from the Bank are bad news. Slim letters from airlines are worse. Nice fat letters from airlines can be opened after a good breakfast. Dogs kicked up the @rse are a signal to maintain a listening watch.
Well if there are no questions…. Smile, you'll be fine!
Topography: Broken and uneven, steeply uphill with brown grass on both sides of the fence.
Population: Divided by two warring tribes:
The Old Farts through whose self-centred desires the entire population is stifled for want of unity, proper jobs are scarce, negotiated progress is impossible and the just cause of the Young Turks is suppressed that a few may reap advantage and to hell with the rest.
The Young Turks through whose self-centred desires the entire population is stifled for want of unity, proper jobs are scarce, negotiated progress is impossible and the just cause of the Old Farts is suppressed that a few may reap advantage and to hell with the rest.
Political Affiliations: A three-party state:
The “Pick It” party. Motto “Picket We do”. Primarily but not exclusively Old Farts.
The “Scab” party. Motto “Picket We don’t”. Primarily but not exclusively Young Turks.
The Popular Front. Motto “We’re just LoCo”.
Industry: None.
Sports: Going to the dogs.
Religion/Ethnicity: I’m all right Jacks 20%; Arslikhani 60%; Magratheans10%; Coo what am I like 10%
Aggroculture: Are you looking at me mate?
Situation
Looking for one.
Mission
To transfer those skills that can be transferred and to exercise complete closure on those that can’t with a view to securing as much health, wealth and happiness if that’s not too much to ask.
Execution
You will suffer this if you utter “When I was in….”
Concurrent activity. Apply to more than one outfit. Maintain your old hours. If you are not working 7 hours a day productively towards securing your next job you won’t get one.
Acquire 500hrs minimum PIC on jets; or 250hrs ditto with 1500hrs FO on props; ex-rotary wing 250hrs ditto and 500hrs RW – no, not because you’re brilliant but because you are ugly and you smell. Please go away.
Mug up on industrial psychology. Learn to fake sincerity. Practise the Duchenne smile.
Pass the aptitude skills, logical reasoning, psychometric tests. Pass the simulator assessment. Pass the one-hour interview board.
Administration
Get your hands legally on 60-70k at a rate you can afford to pay back. When you apply for a job make sure that you have
Birth certificate – don’t be over 49 at all, at all, at all; 42 at all, at all; 36 at all.
Education certificates
Degree(s) [if any]
(Your commissioning scroll) – they may ask. Then again they may not give 2...
Attestations to flying brevet(s)
Driver’s Licence unsullied
Current passport with unrestricted access
(Where your medical records are)
(Where your dental records are) – eg Qantas, you’d be surprised why!
Class 1 medical
CPL
ATPL or the pass slips for the exams
Proof of multi-engine IFR
Endorsements for NDB, VOR, ILS, LLZ etc
Last 3 pages of log book
All the things I’ve forgotten but you took the time and effort to research.
Command & Signals
Command. It’s your call. But mice are smart these days and it is the first mouse that gets the cheese. Like all vocations “Why you” and “Why now” and “Give me an example…” are the questions that will have to be answered such that they call you within 3 weeks. Say to yourself “All I have done so far counts for diddly squat in the eyes of these morons”. Practice not saying this aloud. Do not say “The RAF is a pile of poo these days especially those w@nkers in Gloucester so I thought I’d give you lot the chance and you’ll be glad to have me”. The gentleman sat to the right whose name you did not quite catch was AoC PTC Gloucester until last Thursday.
Signals. Partners looking daggers are a signal that your relationship may not survive. Letters from the Bank are bad news. Slim letters from airlines are worse. Nice fat letters from airlines can be opened after a good breakfast. Dogs kicked up the @rse are a signal to maintain a listening watch.
Well if there are no questions…. Smile, you'll be fine!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Whilst instructing at Dundee (early 1990)I had fun teaching at least 3 F4 navs who were about to leave the RAF their PPLs. One inparticular has done rather well as he is now the Chief Pilot for one of the major tour operator outfits. So PPL to Chief pilot in 16 isn't too bad for an ex nav is it? It proves that it can be done and I tell this to the young navs that I fly with now.
Join Date: May 2000
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RAF Nav to civilan pilot is by no means unknown - I are one, although I left the RAF when much older than you (49) so I never tried for an airline job, happy to stay with instructing of one form or another. I also know a nav of my vintage who left much earlier and ended up in the LHS of 757/767.
At you age it should be no problem. Your nav training will be good background, though you will get no credit for it as far as getting pilot qualifications.
As to how to go about it, take a look at the sticky thread at the top of the Professional Pilot Training forum.
And good luck!
BobC
At you age it should be no problem. Your nav training will be good background, though you will get no credit for it as far as getting pilot qualifications.
As to how to go about it, take a look at the sticky thread at the top of the Professional Pilot Training forum.
And good luck!
BobC
Join Date: May 2002
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Nav mate, It has been done by a colleague of mine very recently, and he was the other side of 40. He had however caught the flying bug a few years earlier and used his pay, service flying club benefits etc. to work himself through his PPL, IR, ATPL etc. prior to jumping ship. Now has a civvy flying job (not airlines) and does a bit of instruction too.
It will cost you, especially if you attempt it all in a short timescale, but it is achievable.
Best of Luck!
It will cost you, especially if you attempt it all in a short timescale, but it is achievable.
Best of Luck!
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NAV,
Are you for real man?
If you were who you say you are, then I don't understand why you are asking here, and more over, you know that joining the airlines just don't work like you seem to think.
Come on, own up.. who are you? a journo scum or what?
I for one don't believe you are for real.
Be careful everyone, beadwindow and all that stuff
TSM
Are you for real man?
If you were who you say you are, then I don't understand why you are asking here, and more over, you know that joining the airlines just don't work like you seem to think.
Come on, own up.. who are you? a journo scum or what?
I for one don't believe you are for real.
Be careful everyone, beadwindow and all that stuff
TSM
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: By a lake in the North...
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Beags.... may not be too far off the mark - how long's an SSC these days? 8 years for aircrew, IIRC, although I'm a little out of the loop on such things. Or... maybe our friend is thinking of jumping ship before his RoS kicks in.... I'm sure he'll clarify for us!
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Although just a mere Navy SAR Observer I am in the process of doing all my licensces (off to Bristol GS on Monday for Module 1) although slightly older at 37.
It is expensive (luckily I have a rich wife!!) and none of my 3500 hrs / A2 instructor cat seem to mean jot, that said why should they, I am trying to get a by on the MCC course but still waiting to find out if it is feasible.
If you PM me I will try to give you some advice if you wish.
Fatobs
It is expensive (luckily I have a rich wife!!) and none of my 3500 hrs / A2 instructor cat seem to mean jot, that said why should they, I am trying to get a by on the MCC course but still waiting to find out if it is feasible.
If you PM me I will try to give you some advice if you wish.
Fatobs
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Well its good to see there are some people who are suspicious out there.
The SSC is 12yrs however that is what they promise to give you. i.e they will guarantee your job, be it air or groundcrew for that period. However, once you have completed your training and gone through an Operational Conversion Unit for your type you are 'required' to serve a return of service which is six years from starting that course.
I do however still have a few years remaining, that is why i have started to look around now as I know to do something like this will take a good few years to sort out and quite a bit of money. For this, I have a good few years on a good wage to pay for it. It is though, a dream that I have always wanted and yes I will get what I want, but will also enjoy what I can out of the RAF at the same time.
I do love being a Nav, but it is not the dream. Plus I don't want to end up down at Strike or another office somewhere to finish off my years in the service writing policys or strategies. All I have ever wanted to do is fly. If I have a blurred vision of what and how the airlines are like then I would be glad to take any views on that!?
For those of you have looked at my profile, unfortunatley for you, I was going to use my own name on here, because with the powers that be, I am not prepared to tell all my story until I have sorted a plan.
Those of you who know anything about how the 'Mob' works, this job is like playing a game of poker, you play your cards very close to your chest until you are ready to show all. If there is any suspicion, then I can't help that, but I do welcome those of you who have replied to my question as you have given me a good boost to start me off in the right direction.
many thanks, and keep it coming!
The SSC is 12yrs however that is what they promise to give you. i.e they will guarantee your job, be it air or groundcrew for that period. However, once you have completed your training and gone through an Operational Conversion Unit for your type you are 'required' to serve a return of service which is six years from starting that course.
I do however still have a few years remaining, that is why i have started to look around now as I know to do something like this will take a good few years to sort out and quite a bit of money. For this, I have a good few years on a good wage to pay for it. It is though, a dream that I have always wanted and yes I will get what I want, but will also enjoy what I can out of the RAF at the same time.
I do love being a Nav, but it is not the dream. Plus I don't want to end up down at Strike or another office somewhere to finish off my years in the service writing policys or strategies. All I have ever wanted to do is fly. If I have a blurred vision of what and how the airlines are like then I would be glad to take any views on that!?
For those of you have looked at my profile, unfortunatley for you, I was going to use my own name on here, because with the powers that be, I am not prepared to tell all my story until I have sorted a plan.
Those of you who know anything about how the 'Mob' works, this job is like playing a game of poker, you play your cards very close to your chest until you are ready to show all. If there is any suspicion, then I can't help that, but I do welcome those of you who have replied to my question as you have given me a good boost to start me off in the right direction.
many thanks, and keep it coming!
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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Dear NAVGETMEOUTO.........oh I've dropped off.
Wasn't a Nav (know a few though, look for navoff) but a Flight Eng so situation similar. I left over two years ago at age forty and self sponsored through licenses and still managed to get a job at the end of it. Okay, the pay sucks and I'm going to have to move on to make it pay but its a good start.
Firstly, lets blow away a few myths. Civil aviation has its own fair share of 'iffy' jobs, anal retentives and disgruntled employees. The grass isn't greener just a different shade, so be sure about your motives to move.
The training is laborious and expensive but eminently do-able (I did it so anyone can) so its just a case of putting your head down and getting on with it.
Don't get hung up about training providers and which one is better than which. Please yourself and go for the ones which suit your location and pocket, generally employers will hire on experience and your performance at interview/sim test but mostly on who you know.
Consider doing an instructors rating (more expense but you can do this straight after PPL) as you can build hours whilst you're still at Her Majesty's Leisure and some employers like an instructors rating on a CV.
Can't think of anything else at the moment (no really, I'm on my forth glass) but good luck and if you're committed start sooner rather than later.
JimNich
Wasn't a Nav (know a few though, look for navoff) but a Flight Eng so situation similar. I left over two years ago at age forty and self sponsored through licenses and still managed to get a job at the end of it. Okay, the pay sucks and I'm going to have to move on to make it pay but its a good start.
Firstly, lets blow away a few myths. Civil aviation has its own fair share of 'iffy' jobs, anal retentives and disgruntled employees. The grass isn't greener just a different shade, so be sure about your motives to move.
The training is laborious and expensive but eminently do-able (I did it so anyone can) so its just a case of putting your head down and getting on with it.
Don't get hung up about training providers and which one is better than which. Please yourself and go for the ones which suit your location and pocket, generally employers will hire on experience and your performance at interview/sim test but mostly on who you know.
Consider doing an instructors rating (more expense but you can do this straight after PPL) as you can build hours whilst you're still at Her Majesty's Leisure and some employers like an instructors rating on a CV.
Can't think of anything else at the moment (no really, I'm on my forth glass) but good luck and if you're committed start sooner rather than later.
JimNich
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Start now.
Do the initial flying 'on the cheap' at your local RAF Flying Club.
Get an Instructor Rating (cheap in the USA) so you can teach at the above and use these for the 'hours building' part of the CPL.
Give Multiflight (Leeds) / OAT (Oxford) / Cabair (Cranfield/Eastbourne) a call and ask about a Modular ATPL - this is the better route for you (as opposed to a full time, 'zero to hero', Integrated ATPL).
12-18 mths before your exit date, complete the ATPL groundschool and exams, by Distance Learning if possible (there are strange rules re the number of sittings you can have to take the exams).
You can use your Early Learning Credits for the flying and the exams.
As you may be leaving with no/little gratuity, you're better off sorting this all out while you have a salary.
Pay ...
FI at small airfield - £12-15k
Small twin - £20-30k
757 co / small airline (eg DHL) - £38ish rising to £43 (plus allowances)
and so on etc.
I guess you need to pitch yourself above the lower levels - RAF quals will help too. Consider Flt Safety, CRM, CRM Instructor, QNI (A2 would be a bonus). Try Aerosystems for an MSc which you could follow up with a testing job somewhere. There's also a DL MSc in Airline Transport Management at one of the London Unis - I believe you do it in 'modules' and would enhance your profile compared to the other non-military applicants.
Good luck.
Do the initial flying 'on the cheap' at your local RAF Flying Club.
Get an Instructor Rating (cheap in the USA) so you can teach at the above and use these for the 'hours building' part of the CPL.
Give Multiflight (Leeds) / OAT (Oxford) / Cabair (Cranfield/Eastbourne) a call and ask about a Modular ATPL - this is the better route for you (as opposed to a full time, 'zero to hero', Integrated ATPL).
12-18 mths before your exit date, complete the ATPL groundschool and exams, by Distance Learning if possible (there are strange rules re the number of sittings you can have to take the exams).
You can use your Early Learning Credits for the flying and the exams.
As you may be leaving with no/little gratuity, you're better off sorting this all out while you have a salary.
Pay ...
FI at small airfield - £12-15k
Small twin - £20-30k
757 co / small airline (eg DHL) - £38ish rising to £43 (plus allowances)
and so on etc.
I guess you need to pitch yourself above the lower levels - RAF quals will help too. Consider Flt Safety, CRM, CRM Instructor, QNI (A2 would be a bonus). Try Aerosystems for an MSc which you could follow up with a testing job somewhere. There's also a DL MSc in Airline Transport Management at one of the London Unis - I believe you do it in 'modules' and would enhance your profile compared to the other non-military applicants.
Good luck.
