Bucc aircrew question.
Thread Starter
Bucc aircrew question.
As some of you may know I have an unheathy interest in ejection seats.
I have rebuilt a few Mk 6 seats from buccaneers to be displayed in museums etc. These have all been fitted with the seat mounted harness.
Whilst fixing a film for some mates re the 12 sqdn detatchment to Gib I was suprised to see the aircrew wearing the harness to the a/c and connecting to the seat via Koch connectors and lap straps.
Can any ex Bucc aircrew tell me was there a change in the restraint/parachute system or were both types used operationally?
I know both systems were usewd on the F4 due to some of the f4's being ex USAF and the seat system was inherited from them.
What (from an end user point of view) were the benefits of both systems?
I have rebuilt a few Mk 6 seats from buccaneers to be displayed in museums etc. These have all been fitted with the seat mounted harness.
Whilst fixing a film for some mates re the 12 sqdn detatchment to Gib I was suprised to see the aircrew wearing the harness to the a/c and connecting to the seat via Koch connectors and lap straps.
Can any ex Bucc aircrew tell me was there a change in the restraint/parachute system or were both types used operationally?
I know both systems were usewd on the F4 due to some of the f4's being ex USAF and the seat system was inherited from them.
What (from an end user point of view) were the benefits of both systems?
The Simplified Combined Harness was VASTLY better than the horrible torso harness system. You had to struggle into the damn thing, then faff about with the Koch fasteners and fastener locking pins.
I can't imagine anyone who has used both systems having a single good thing to say about the torso harness system. We certainly used it on the Bucc back in 1976.
I can't imagine anyone who has used both systems having a single good thing to say about the torso harness system. We certainly used it on the Bucc back in 1976.
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If my memory is in better shape than the rest of my body, I think the Koch fasteners were installed ass about face on the British version of the torso Harness and that is why the locking pins were introduced to stop them coming adrift.
I remember changing over from torso harness to SCH but can't recall whether that was on the Bucc or the Phantom FGR2.
I think the Koch pins came in as a result of some USMC Harrier accident, but the Wise Heads said that they were, in fact, overkill since the same geometrical problem of Koch release flaps opening under bang seat or parachute loads couldn't happen with UK torso harnesses.
We had to be able to locate and remove the silly pins, then get out of the infernal torso harness whilst being dragged across the aerodrome by truck at AMTC North Luffenham - and then again by boat at SCSR Mountbatten.
Such fun.....
I think the Koch pins came in as a result of some USMC Harrier accident, but the Wise Heads said that they were, in fact, overkill since the same geometrical problem of Koch release flaps opening under bang seat or parachute loads couldn't happen with UK torso harnesses.
We had to be able to locate and remove the silly pins, then get out of the infernal torso harness whilst being dragged across the aerodrome by truck at AMTC North Luffenham - and then again by boat at SCSR Mountbatten.
Such fun.....
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Correct (Soddim)!
Originally came to the Bucc without the pins when I started out in 1971.
The skeletal harness with its Koch fasteners was much quicker for QRA crews in Germany.
I would certainly say that the skeletal was much easier to strap in to the aircraft but it did double you up when tight and squeeze the old tackle if you were not too careful when tightening your straps. Never had to use it in an emergency but it was also easier to escape from when being dragged behind the marine craft.
Originally came to the Bucc without the pins when I started out in 1971.
The skeletal harness with its Koch fasteners was much quicker for QRA crews in Germany.
I would certainly say that the skeletal was much easier to strap in to the aircraft but it did double you up when tight and squeeze the old tackle if you were not too careful when tightening your straps. Never had to use it in an emergency but it was also easier to escape from when being dragged behind the marine craft.
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To my knowledge all models of the F-4 used a torso harness. The US version was used on about 4800 F-4s, but we Brits had to go it alone for our couple of hundred and have a different harness which had Koch fasteners fitted more or less 'back-to-front' and made extra fiddly. It then had to have extra safety pins fitted as BEagle mentioned to prevent it from coming undone inadvertently - wonderful! This clever system was the same as used on the Buccaneers and, I think, the Harriers. And hasn't the system been developed (and hopefully improved?) for the RAF's subsequent fast jets?
I partly agree with BEagle about the torso harness but it was easier to tighten comfortably than the combined harness. However, I'm just glad that I didn't have to release myself from it after a parachute landing in a strong wind.
Umm, by the time I got my response to BEagle written, 3 more of you had jumped in. Sorry for any repetition.
I partly agree with BEagle about the torso harness but it was easier to tighten comfortably than the combined harness. However, I'm just glad that I didn't have to release myself from it after a parachute landing in a strong wind.
Umm, by the time I got my response to BEagle written, 3 more of you had jumped in. Sorry for any repetition.
Avoid imitations
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"We had to be able to locate and remove the silly pins, then get out of the infernal torso harness whilst being dragged across the aerodrome by truck at AMTC North Luffenham - and then again by boat at SCSR Mountbatten."
Hey Beagle, did you never realise it was only YOU who had to do that?
Hey Beagle, did you never realise it was only YOU who had to do that?
Don't know what you mean - all 6 of us did it on my course.
The aerodrome drag was fine, but the SCSR harness releases were rather stiff and awkward, having been in the briny rather often!
The aerodrome drag was fine, but the SCSR harness releases were rather stiff and awkward, having been in the briny rather often!
Thread Starter
Quite a few of the RAF F4's (certainly in later years) had a combined harness system i.e. strap on the seat after climbing in.
When I did the dingy drill at the pool in Cranwell (Conningsby didnt have a pool) and we were hung from the diving board in the harness before pulling pins and flipping the flaps on the kochs I asked why we had pins and no-one else did I was told that under certain conditions of "G" the flap could lift on ejection and disconnect you from the chute when you most needed it!!!
When I did the dingy drill at the pool in Cranwell (Conningsby didnt have a pool) and we were hung from the diving board in the harness before pulling pins and flipping the flaps on the kochs I asked why we had pins and no-one else did I was told that under certain conditions of "G" the flap could lift on ejection and disconnect you from the chute when you most needed it!!!
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Having flown my whole career in UK FJs and being carried along quite happily by Martin Baker I am now flying US ac and wearing the US style of harness which you wear to the ac and clip in. I find the US style of seat and harness far more comfortable and far easier to move around in the cockpit. FYI
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The torso harness was used on both RAF and USAF F4s. The big difference was the male/female placing. On one nationality the male portion was on the torso harness and on the other it was the female part attached to the torso harness - having used both I can't remember which Nation had which but the USAF version was the correct way round - hence the use of safety pins by the RAF to prevent inadvertent release.
Incidentally, the USAF had a neat system that ensured all the seat and ancillary pins were removed before flight. They were all attached together by strong tape ending in a pin pouch. When all the pins and tape were in the pouch it was stowed and you knew all the pins were out.
Incidentally, the USAF had a neat system that ensured all the seat and ancillary pins were removed before flight. They were all attached together by strong tape ending in a pin pouch. When all the pins and tape were in the pouch it was stowed and you knew all the pins were out.
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UK F-4 crews had the male parts on the Skeletal Torso. I well remember the changeover to the SCH. All of 111 Sqn aircraft done on one weekend and all 43 Sqn done the next. God the chute packers were knackered
