Sea King stuck in the mountains
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A Chinook lifted the Gannet cab from Langdale after they'd strimmed the hill top in May 04. No worries until they dropped it back at Prestwick when the 'King rolled off down dispersal. Forgotten to put the brakes on!
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The RAF Kinloss Mountain Rescue Team has set up camp at the scene to guard against trophy hunters or anyone trying to start up the helicopter
Did I see it following the A90 this afternoon with a very black streak (not brown) down the side?
JunglyAEO,
That use of a Queen Mary sounds like a good idea - in 1998 I had a task involving lifting a tip-struck Eric S61 from 11nm N of Ullapool and taking it all the way back to Aberdeen. Took 4h 30m, including a div to Lossie with a chip light - an S61 completely de-fuelled and de-roled will only travel at 15-25kts underslung. The Bristows Chf Eng left the pickup site after we did, drove back to Dyce and was there on dispersal to greet us. We only just made it in before the haar arrived.
That use of a Queen Mary sounds like a good idea - in 1998 I had a task involving lifting a tip-struck Eric S61 from 11nm N of Ullapool and taking it all the way back to Aberdeen. Took 4h 30m, including a div to Lossie with a chip light - an S61 completely de-fuelled and de-roled will only travel at 15-25kts underslung. The Bristows Chf Eng left the pickup site after we did, drove back to Dyce and was there on dispersal to greet us. We only just made it in before the haar arrived.
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I agree with you about keeping the Mil SAR capability, but as an ex navy flyer and a keen wanderer through the hills and mountains myself, I believe that some sort of insurance should be carried by people who venture out. If nothing else, it will put a little money back in the coffers.
The difficulty will be addressing who should take out the insurance - the serious climber/walker with all the right gear (tho they are more likely to be willing to insure themselves agianst rescue), or the muppet who goes onto the mountain in niks and flip flops?
The difficulty will be addressing who should take out the insurance - the serious climber/walker with all the right gear (tho they are more likely to be willing to insure themselves agianst rescue), or the muppet who goes onto the mountain in niks and flip flops?
I seem to remember a Chinook lifting a Chinook from the top of a high hill in Hampshire back to Odiham (1986/7) - so why not a little SK from a high perch in Scotland?
Did I see it following the A90 this afternoon with a very black streak (not brown) down the side?
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Just thinking out loud...
When it was shutdown lots of bits that rotate were hot. So the snow melted on them. It's been cold for 5 days now. Where has all that melted snow run to before it froze again?
Like, in the photo there seems to be snow, and no blanks, in the exhausts. What got in the bottom of the power turbines before a full set of covers was provided?
Navy chaps, experience of shutting down and leaving aircraft in the cold? What can go wrong?
Sven
When it was shutdown lots of bits that rotate were hot. So the snow melted on them. It's been cold for 5 days now. Where has all that melted snow run to before it froze again?
Like, in the photo there seems to be snow, and no blanks, in the exhausts. What got in the bottom of the power turbines before a full set of covers was provided?
Navy chaps, experience of shutting down and leaving aircraft in the cold? What can go wrong?
Sven
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Jungly AEO will tell ya.......
...where are ya fella.
Im a little surprised they havent put the covers on it? Do you RAF SK guys have the big thermal blankets that the RN guys have?
...where are ya fella.
Im a little surprised they havent put the covers on it? Do you RAF SK guys have the big thermal blankets that the RN guys have?
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SAR
Funny old thing, ive been mostly on the Jag det site that made the.......... wont even mention the scum, eh do they ever go on about our SAR lads......................mmm think not endangering ur life doesnt count !! spending a few pounds well thats top story!!
Glad SAR boys got out ok!
Glad SAR boys got out ok!
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Originally Posted by JessTheDog
Why don't climbing and walking suppliers offer the opportunity to make a voluntary (say 5p) donation for every purchase, donated to mountain rescue? You could flog little climbing-rope style metal badges as well. The RAF volunteer teams work and train extremely hard, and I am sure the civilian teams could do with the cash for equipment.
The government looked at charging for SAR in 1982, and probably since. Any approach you care to name falls over on some serious imponderables.
The main one is that there are four core elements to the funding of UK SAR (taking maritime and mountain together): those funded by MoD (choppers, MRTs, Nimrods and coordination); those funded by the MCA (coastguards, some choppers, coordination); the RNLI, a charity; and civilian MRTs, effectivley charities too.
What do you try to charge for? If you assume that the MoD funded elements are there to recover ditched or mountain-bound flyers, then it is arguable that they have to exist anyway, and what they do most of the time - eg lifting ill equipped civilians off Ben Nevis or ill equipped sailors off rocks - is highly valuable training for their real role. Likewise the military MRTs.
Coastguards and other MCA funded elements (eg some choppers) could arguably be charged for at the point of delivery. Presumably if someone doesn't have the required insurance or the appropriate credit card, they are left to die... Hardly likely to help win the next election. Added to this is the sense that those most likely to call on the rescue services are those least likely to have the required insurance (or decent clothing, boots, maps or charts, compass etc etc). Then there's the new bureaucracy needed to work out what charges are needed, send out the bills, chase the defaulters etc etc. It doesn't look like a sure fire money spinner.
And that's all before you get to the really difficult bit of the problem. The lifeboats and the civilian MRTs are manned by volunteers and funded by donations, so come at no cost to the government anyway, so you can't charge for those.
And if you did start to charge for any element of the service, how soon before the public stopped contributing to the RNLI and civilian MRTs, leaving a huge new funding gap?
However you try to look at this, and however odd the current arrangements, any moves towards charging for any element of SAR, towards requiring insurance, towards changing the current funding elements could all too easily end up with the effective destruction of vital parts of the infrastructure (the voluntary bits) and huge extra costs to government as it has to pay for the replacement.
The current system is a bizarre one, but it isnt broken: so serious caution is advised before trying to fix it!
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Jungly
How would they get a gust lock on in a coire filled with boulders, in the dark with no steps? It isn't quite the same as Norway when you shutdown for the night. The Mk3 is already tight for power so carrying artic covers is a little over the top for one unplanned event in the last few years. They used to carry blanks but securing them in 60kts of wind may have been a problem. Perhaps the athletic jungly aircrew can leap around the frozen transmission decking with gay abandon but the knackered old SAR boys can't
How would they get a gust lock on in a coire filled with boulders, in the dark with no steps? It isn't quite the same as Norway when you shutdown for the night. The Mk3 is already tight for power so carrying artic covers is a little over the top for one unplanned event in the last few years. They used to carry blanks but securing them in 60kts of wind may have been a problem. Perhaps the athletic jungly aircrew can leap around the frozen transmission decking with gay abandon but the knackered old SAR boys can't
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OK.... simple engineering for beggineeeeeers.
Largest pilot bends down and smallest pilot climbs onto largest pilots shoulders. Tallest aircrew then hands gust lock to smallest pilot who applys gust lock to T/R.
Especially as they weigh nearly 5Lbs.
Are they not in the Armed Forces then? Do they not need to conduct annual fitness training? Are you telling me that the sort of Aircrew we are employing are too knackered to get up onto the ECU platform and put a blank in...? How do they check the oil and conduct dips and check the pop up filters and all the other engine checks?
How would they get a gust lock on
the Mk3 is already tight for power so carrying artic covers is a little over the top
They used to carry blanks but securing them in 60kts of wind may have been a problem. Perhaps the athletic jungly aircrew can leap around the frozen transmission decking with gay abandon but the knackered old SAR boys can't
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Cyclic,
What do you mean by your comment 'the knackered old SAR boys can't' ???
As an (ex) SAR crewman I would ask you to explain yourself Sir!
And what is all this nonesence about the HAR3 being tight for power and unable to carry the blanks??
I'm afraid you are talking utter tosh my dear chap.
How comes we can lift a load of fishermen off atrawler, but can't carry the weight of the blanks??............silly boy!
I would suggest you all listen to SAR bloke, who is clearly current on the mighty yellow egg whisk. I only wish I was still back there with them now - Happy, happy days.
Kind regards to all SAR Boys and Girls.
TSM
What do you mean by your comment 'the knackered old SAR boys can't' ???
As an (ex) SAR crewman I would ask you to explain yourself Sir!
And what is all this nonesence about the HAR3 being tight for power and unable to carry the blanks??
I'm afraid you are talking utter tosh my dear chap.
How comes we can lift a load of fishermen off atrawler, but can't carry the weight of the blanks??............silly boy!
I would suggest you all listen to SAR bloke, who is clearly current on the mighty yellow egg whisk. I only wish I was still back there with them now - Happy, happy days.
Kind regards to all SAR Boys and Girls.
TSM
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"Just a thought - how well equipped will your gingers be to go out (and stay out) in those conditions"
Jungly its been done many times on winter crash crews up there, I did my first one of four in the 80s, although it would be hard to describe the kit as uniform. Most of us bought our own kit for exercises, it was a worthwhile investment, especially with Sandy Wilson as staish we were out almost every other day. On that first one we did have a very friendly pub as a base
.
Unfortunately, no hotels in the area.
regards
retard
Jungly its been done many times on winter crash crews up there, I did my first one of four in the 80s, although it would be hard to describe the kit as uniform. Most of us bought our own kit for exercises, it was a worthwhile investment, especially with Sandy Wilson as staish we were out almost every other day. On that first one we did have a very friendly pub as a base
.Unfortunately, no hotels in the area.
regards
retard
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Talk about take the bait! As an (ex) SAR pilot, yes, I know they carry blanks but I was eluding to the fact that it may have been a bit tricky to sit on someone's shoulders to place a gust lock given the circumstances.
And as for tosh, why don't the SAR cabs just carry everything they could possibly need and more, perhaps some desert kit just in case they have to shut down on Camber Sands? One, they don't have the space and two, the more extraneous kit you carry the less fishermen you can lift. Please don't tell me the HAR3 is overborne with power - you have obviously never flown it in the mountains.
And as for tosh, why don't the SAR cabs just carry everything they could possibly need and more, perhaps some desert kit just in case they have to shut down on Camber Sands? One, they don't have the space and two, the more extraneous kit you carry the less fishermen you can lift. Please don't tell me the HAR3 is overborne with power - you have obviously never flown it in the mountains.
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Cyclic,
Try reading what people write.
I didn't say the HAR 3 was overborne with power, I said that it was NOT under powered.
As for flying in the mountains - hmmm I'm not sure if I should rise to the bait...
oh to hell with it, here goes... how does 3000+ hrs in the mountains, over the water, in the FI, everywhere grab you?
I notice you didn't answer my question about 'the knackered old SAR boys can't' ... probably didn't read that bit eh??
TSM
Try reading what people write.
I didn't say the HAR 3 was overborne with power, I said that it was NOT under powered.
As for flying in the mountains - hmmm I'm not sure if I should rise to the bait...
oh to hell with it, here goes... how does 3000+ hrs in the mountains, over the water, in the FI, everywhere grab you?
I notice you didn't answer my question about 'the knackered old SAR boys can't' ... probably didn't read that bit eh??
TSM
The blanks and covers are carried but it was not feasable to fit them in the conditions that were present. One of the pilots walked back to the aircraft the following day to fit all blanks/covers/socks etc. We don't carry (or even have at base) big thermal blankets as they would be too heavy and we don't need them. We don't even carry sleeping bags any more (as a weight saving measure) but have top-of-the-range thermal survival blankets instead. As an indication of the depth of snow, when the pilot walked back in, it took over half an hour to walk the last 200m.
As for standing on someones shoulders to fit the gust lock, it is not an easy item to fit at the best of times, let alone in blowing snow at -10 degrees (before wind chill) on a mountain. The crew were 'dressed to survive' and not dressed to carry out an AF/BF and sit around for a cup of tea.
Don't believe everything you read in the papers. The wind was not that strong and the aircraft was sheltered from what little wind there was. Tip socks and tail locks were not required.
The aircraft is serviceable, the crew is safe, the casualty was rescued. This is a brilliant outcome considering what the crew were faced with and what could have happened.
We are going to try the heating method that Jungly AEO has mentioned. We are not sure if it will work but it is our best option at the moment. I have never had a problem with a battery start but we are taking a spare just in case.
If this doesn't work we will go for a Wokka lift but this can't be done yet as we don't want to set off an avalanche. Also, we have still only found one way of removing the blades in the current conditions (both location and weather) and we really don't want to crack open the angle grinder yet
Bear in mind the aircraft is on the only piece of flat ground within an area of about 200m and it is in the middle of a huge boulder field so getting support equipment (such as A frames) near the aircraft is very difficult.
As for standing on someones shoulders to fit the gust lock, it is not an easy item to fit at the best of times, let alone in blowing snow at -10 degrees (before wind chill) on a mountain. The crew were 'dressed to survive' and not dressed to carry out an AF/BF and sit around for a cup of tea.
Don't believe everything you read in the papers. The wind was not that strong and the aircraft was sheltered from what little wind there was. Tip socks and tail locks were not required.
The aircraft is serviceable, the crew is safe, the casualty was rescued. This is a brilliant outcome considering what the crew were faced with and what could have happened.
We are going to try the heating method that Jungly AEO has mentioned. We are not sure if it will work but it is our best option at the moment. I have never had a problem with a battery start but we are taking a spare just in case.
If this doesn't work we will go for a Wokka lift but this can't be done yet as we don't want to set off an avalanche. Also, we have still only found one way of removing the blades in the current conditions (both location and weather) and we really don't want to crack open the angle grinder yet
Bear in mind the aircraft is on the only piece of flat ground within an area of about 200m and it is in the middle of a huge boulder field so getting support equipment (such as A frames) near the aircraft is very difficult.
SAR Bloke - the 2 most amusing things about this situation are that
1. it took one of your guys only a few hours to get the aircraft on ebay and 2. it is still declared on the RCS as a standby at RS60
If only it had been Frenchie then everyone at Valley would have been even more amused......... ah but then we would have had to have 765 action on the FRCs to add an extra check for icing during the pre-winchers
1. it took one of your guys only a few hours to get the aircraft on ebay and 2. it is still declared on the RCS as a standby at RS60
If only it had been Frenchie then everyone at Valley would have been even more amused......... ah but then we would have had to have 765 action on the FRCs to add an extra check for icing during the pre-winchers